How did I do: 1860 Indian Head Penny

Hello,

I am a coin collecting n00b. During the pandemic I began collecting by trying to fill out a collection I started as a child that consists of relatively inexpensive non-U.S. coins. Recently, I decided to start collecting U.S. Indian Head Cents. I just purchased my first coin and would like your feedback on how accurate my attempt to grade the item was and whether or not you think I paid a good price before I buy anymore.

I am not trying to collect mint state coins nor do I want to buy professionally graded coins that are "slabbed". Based upon reading this guide to grading Indian Head Cents, I determined that I want to collect coins where the word "LIBERTY" is readable and resolved on finding coins that fit within VF-20 and XF-40 grades.

Using Photograde on the PCGS site, I purchased this coin on eBay:





I paid $54 and $3 in shipping. This coin seems to fall within the 20-40 grade that I was aiming for (it looks to me like it is most similar to the 35 examples). That price seems well above the price that Numista states (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1108.html) and in line with PCGS (https://www.pcgs.com/prices/detail/copper-type-coins/-9/grades-25-60/ms) but of course without the PCGS grading.

I paid that price because I had lost two coins already in an auction and I couldn't find a similar looking coin with a clear "LIBERTY" for less than that $54 price tag.

I have no context for whether I overpaid or not. What do you think? Was this a fair price or am I missing something?

Did my attempt to self grade this coin come close at all? How would you grade this coin?

What should I do differently next time? Is there something I should stop or start doing?

Thank you so much for your feedback. I truly value your help.

Welcome to Numista!

I am not an expert at grading US coins, but I'd say it's about VF25 or perhaps VF30. In terms of value, the Numista prices are very unreliable. My favorite site is this one where you have more reliable values and also excellent pictures of varieties.

Yours is the "pointed bust" variety, which is a little scarcer than the "rounded bust" variety. It seems to me that you paid somewhat below catalogue value.

Note that since the start of the pandemic, prices realized at auctions have often gone through the roof.

Thank you, thank you @Camerinvs - that site is really helpful.

I think you did just fine. I agree with your assessment that this coin is right about at a VF35 and you paid just a tad over full retail due to shipping . Sometimes I get great deals on coins and sometimes I pay more than full retail if I really need or want the coin to fill one of my many date or type sets. As pointed out already, it is the pointed bust variety and worth a little more than the rounded bust variety. Generally speaking, I try my best to obtain my U.S. coins somewhere between the values of wholesale (Blue book) and full retail (Redbook) but of course I am not always successful. Overall it all works out in the end if you are happy with the coin. I would add that some of my best deals are obtained with fellow collectors at my local coin club and the show they have monthly. I rarely get deals on Ebay where they are almost always pushing end of rainbow retail and beyond.

For collectors not specialized in US cent coins, here the two different busts are explained

Citeer: "Sjoelund"​For collectors not specialized in US cent coins, here the two different busts are explained
​
​

Sjoelund

​The work that you do to give the rest of us visual references of coin types and variants is amazing and by me personally, very much appreciated. I collect by KM and KM variants ie KM1.1 and KM1.2 so knowing how to identify them makes it a great deal easier. My thanks.

Jerry

Citeer: "harryg"​I think you did just fine. I agree with your assessment that this coin is right about at a VF35 and you paid just a tad over full retail due to shipping . Sometimes I get great deals on coins and sometimes I pay more than full retail if I really need or want the coin to fill one of my many date or type sets.

​Fully agree with this assessment.

These days it is hard to know what "normal retail" price is, since prices have been moving up steadily as mentioned by others. For coins in the grade range you are looking for, the best market indicator is recent eBay sales.

Remember that there MANY IHCs of every date being bought and sold every week on eBay, so if you lose an auction, there will be others at about the same grade every week. Other collectors will also be willing to pay a premium for coins with better eye appeal at the same "technical grade." (coins with uniform color, fewer blemishes etc). If you have the funds available, don't worry about going a little over what you thought you would pay for the coin that will make you happy. We all grapple with this!

Thanks a lot for the praise,

A lot of my documentations are made in a team-work, most of the US-variants have been made with the support of rsirian and harryg, so I'm not alone trying to promote the documentation of variants. Others are made made because collectors asking me to identify their findings, and in many cases that results in "new" variants. Alone you cannot do a lot! With the help of the friends it's easier.

My goal is to document all the variants, which are mentioned in our different catalogs, but often without any factual proof. It's evident I'll never succeed, but at least hundreds, if not thousands have already been documented and imbedded in Numista. Future generations can benefit from that basic work. It takes time to do the documentations and every time I get hold of a "new" coin I take my time to investigate if it's a normal or an eventual variant comparing it with the coins in my collection or with my doubles. It's fastidious, but it's OK.

While I don't collect minor variants, I greatly appreciate having them listed and shown in Numista because if I have a coin, I want to checkmark the right variant. I'm unable to just checkmark any random line, though I know many do that.

The random checkmarking explains why so often a scarce variant seems to be rather common among Numista collector when it's on the first line. I suppose those who collect by KM numbers just checkmark the first line. Perhaps there should be a line above the rest just for checkmarking the KM number without any reference to any specific year.

As for the coin under investigation, VF35 seems a bit high to me because I don't see it that close to XF40. What I sometimes do in such situations is to look for graded coins in Google Images. American grading companies are very good at grading American coins.

Thank you all - this is a great help!

@Camerinvs - I said 35 because it looked like "LIBERTY" was sharper and the feathers seemed to have more detail. Here is the VF30 example from photograde:



What should I look at when using something like photograde? (I'm not challenging - I want to learn :-)

@Sjoelund - thanks so much for the photo examples

Citeer: "tdziemia"​

Citeer: "harryg"​I think you did just fine. I agree with your assessment that this coin is right about at a VF35 and you paid just a tad over full retail due to shipping . Sometimes I get great deals on coins and sometimes I pay more than full retail if I really need or want the coin to fill one of my many date or type sets.

​​Fully agree with this assessment.
​
​These days it is hard to know what "normal retail" price is, since prices have been moving up steadily as mentioned by others. For coins in the grade range you are looking for, the best market indicator is recent eBay sales.
​
​Remember that there MANY IHCs of every date being bought and sold every week on eBay, so if you lose an auction, there will be others at about the same grade every week. Other collectors will also be willing to pay a premium for coins with better eye appeal at the same "technical grade." (coins with uniform color, fewer blemishes etc). If you have the funds available, don't worry about going a little over what you thought you would pay for the coin that will make you happy. We all grapple with this!

​I am super happy with my purchase - I think you are spot on.

Citeer ​​@Camerinvs - I said 35 because it looked like "LIBERTY" was sharper and the feathers seemed to have more detail. Here is the VF30 example from photograde:
​
​
​
​What should I look at when using something like photograde? (I'm not challenging - I want to learn :-)

​Aaaah! If this is VF30, then indeed yours is VF35! I assumed the feathers were too worn for a VF35 grade.

The SpruceCraft site you linked in your OP just has thumbnail images ─ actually the images get smaller when you click on them, so it's unusable.

For convenience, here is a link to the PCGS "Photograde" page.

Now if you compare the obverses of the VF30 (1877) and VF35 (1909), the lower part of the bust (necklace and lower right tip) is higher grade on the VF30. Perhaps LIBERTY trumps any other parts of the coin in grading, I don't know, but it seems to me that on average, there's very little to grade the 1877 lower than the 1909.

The reverse of the 1909 is definitely stronger, but grading is based on the obverse.