1864 IHC with 5% silver content.

From a post, author stated that he had a pattern coin 1864  IHC, With  5% silver content. 

Anyone heard of such a pattern coin

I think its nickel myself.

Wow wow … not so much information and context at once 🙃

Coinsandcrafts0682

From a post, author stated that he had a pattern coin 1864  IHC, With  5% silver content. 

Anyone heard of such a pattern coin

I think its nickel myself.

Welcome to numista.

Please read the forum policy before posting, so please send images and measurements and try to explain what IHC is? Also please give the link to the post, to which you're referring.

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 My guess is Indian Head Cent 

N#2356 

N#1108 

Maybe 

On a philosophical thought, what would adding 5% silver to a coin accomplish? Do such coins exist?

I feel that it would effectively make that silver unavailable, as reclaiming it would potentially be more expensive than the worth of the silver content.

Maybe J356 pattern.  I think that's the only Indian head cent pattern with silver in it.

https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/j356p426.html 

Interesting link.

Not related to the original question posed … Why would there have been any kind of prototype using aluminum when this was a metal that was not yet in commercial production anywhere on earth in 1864??

tdziemia

Interesting link.

 

Not related to the original question posed … Why would there have been any kind of prototype using aluminum when this was a metal that was not yet in commercial production anywhere on earth in 1864??

By 1864 cheap aluminum refining methods had been in existence for about 10 years.  While (as you state) there were no large scale production of aluminum there was enough aluminum being produced for experimentation purposes including coinage.

N#312482

N#200430

N#258072 

Kopeika

On a philosophical thought, what would adding 5% silver to a coin accomplish? Do such coins exist?

I feel that it would effectively make that silver unavailable, as reclaiming it would potentially be more expensive than the worth of the silver content.

Around that same time period, Switzerland issued minor coins with 5, 10, and 15% silver, as part of a four-metal alloy including copper, nickel, and zinc. Apparently the reason they quit was the alloy was extremely hard on the dies. A more conventional 75% copper/25% nickel alloy replaced it.

MinnesotaMystery

 

Switzerland issued minor coins with 5, 10, and 15% silver,  the reason they quit was the alloy was extremely hard on the dies.

In other words, the reason for adding a bit of silver could be metallurgical. I didn't think of that. Thanks!

Kopeika

MinnesotaMystery

 

Switzerland issued minor coins with 5, 10, and 15% silver,  the reason they quit was the alloy was extremely hard on the dies.

 

In other words, the reason for adding a bit of silver could be metallurgical. I didn't think of that. Thanks!

The US Mint also experimented with nickel as an alloy for silver but the results weren't good. Apparently nickel and silver do not mix well. I'll see later if I can find a reference.

rsirian1

tdziemia

Interesting link.

 

Not related to the original question posed … Why would there have been any kind of prototype using aluminum when this was a metal that was not yet in commercial production anywhere on earth in 1864??

By 1864 cheap aluminum refining methods had been in existence for about 10 years.  While (as you state) there were no large scale production of aluminum there was enough aluminum being produced for experimentation purposes including coinage.

 

N#312482

N#200430

N#258072 

Thanks for those links.

It seems it was common practice to use aluminum for patterns (for which I assume the mintage was always rather small).

The Hall-Heroult aluminum process dates to the 1880s.  Before that, aluminum was at least as valuable as silver, so it would never have been practical for use in 1 cent coins even at relatively low percentages in the 1860s.  

On the question about low silver percentages in a copper coin … This was common practice in late medieval times:

Mite - Philip the Good - Burgundian Netherlands – Numista

2 Mites - Philip the Handsome - Burgundian Netherlands – Numista

tdziemia

 

On the question about low silver percentages in a copper coin … This was common practice in late medieval times:

Mite - Philip the Good - Burgundian Netherlands – Numista

2 Mites - Philip the Handsome - Burgundian Netherlands – Numista

Interesting. I have heard of billon before.

Do you know if this was the result of debasement, or again - gave the coin some desirable properties like resistance to wear?

I struggle to understand a precious metal value of a coin with so little silver in it, especially in middle ages.

Silver doesn't provide much in terms of wear protection but it can make it easier to make alloys of base metals by lowering the needed temperature. In medieval times the level of metallurgy was still relatively low so this won't be the reason, it is just for providing a value to the metal. Especially in German countries there could be up to four times in a year a call to bring in your old coins in exchange for new ones (mostly with lower silver content). Do this enough times and you can end up with sub 100‰ coins.

Idolenz

Silver doesn't provide much in terms of wear protection but it can make it easier to make alloys of base metals by lowering the needed temperature. In medieval times the level of metallurgy was still relatively low so this won't be the reason, it is just for providing a value to the metal. Especially in German countries there could be up to four times in a year a call to bring in your old coins in exchange for new ones (mostly with lower silver content). Do this enough times and you can end up with sub 100‰ coins.

Yes. Billon was the way to put in circulation very low denominations in an age when fiat money wasn't acceptable. There is, therefore, a significant difference between billon, even at, say, 4%, and copper and bronze, which are almost always fiat money. 

It's funny that not long ago I was looking at the catalogue of French coins regarding this issue of very low silver %, and my heart stopped because for a moment all that I knew about the introduction of pure copper in France was out the window. Well, someone added a catalogue page a while back for a 16th-century “denier tournois” which s/he described as “copper”. But I found out it actually contained 4% silver. So, No! ─ It's not copper, it's billon! If they put silver in it, in however minimal quantity, there is a reason  for it, and it's therefore billon!

Even as far back as the 200s and 300s, the Romans debased their coins to the point that there was virtually no silver left, hence the expressions “full silvering” contrasted to “silver wash”.

And one last interesting detail if you're into this kind of historical trivia: In many places (UK, France, etc.) the introduction of pure copper was not primarily intended to provide change for silver but rather so that the poor would have money to buy daily needs in small amounts.

Camerinvs

 

Very interesting.

I guess it's also worth noting, that even a small amount of silver can make the coin look silverish. That in itself would most likely make the coin “look” more valuable than a copper coin, which probably went a long way in the medieval times.

Kopeika

Camerinvs

 

Very interesting.

I guess it's also worth noting, that even a small amount of silver can make the coin look silverish. That in itself would most likely make the coin “look” more valuable than a copper coin, which probably went a long way in the medieval times.

And you can also fool people just long enough for the coins to enter circulation. Henry VIII issued “silver” coins which came to be known as “copper nose”. Why? Because they were of very low silver content, but in order to pass them off as silver, the planchets were treated in some sort of acid bath which removed the copper on the surface, but not the silver. So, when struck, they looked full silver, but within weeks the king's nose started to look “coppery”…

Ottoman Turkey frequently issued base silver coins in the 18th and early 19th century. Some with less than 20% silver like this Beslik from 1832.

17% silver, so base I thought it was copper or Iron.

British colonies also had base silver coins like the shillings of East Africa from the 1920s to 1945 or so which were just 20% silver and some Malayan coins (Trade dollars or something) that were also only 10% silver.

Swiss 20 Rappen coins were 10% silver as well in the 1850s.

Sweden issued 40% silver coins of 10, 25, 50 ore and 1 Krona from 1942 to 1967.

I suppose 17% actually means 1 part silver out of 6 parts, since 6 X 17 = 102.