Change the display of titles in search results?

Hello,
 

Some recent discussions on the forum (here for example) showed that some people prefer seeing the denominations in the language of the issuing country rather than in English. We already introduced a way to show the denomination in both languages in the feature box a few months ago. But a crucial part of the discussion is about how we show the denomination in the title. We considered automating the title based on the data of the coin or banknote, and let people choose their preferred style of title, but we could not find a good solution for such automation yet. The titles currently convey a number of information that are not recorded anywhere else.

An alternative idea would to change the way we display search results. As our database now contains the local name for many denominations and rulers, we could show these names below the title, so that people who are used to these names can browse the search results more easily. Here is a mockup:

What do you think about this?

Do you agree this should be applicable to all languages, including Arabic, Chinese, Latin, etc.?

I like your second option more…

But, given we already have multiple interface languages, and will no doubt be adding more…
..and that titles are already in EN and FR and will hopefully translate to all interface languages eventually.

Couldn’t we just add ‘Local’ as an option: -
Local: Wartość – Król (Szczegóły)
EN: Value – King (Details)
FR: Valeur – Roi (Détails)
ES: Valor – Rey (Detalles)

All item titles can be entered in their native language, then translated to all interface languages. Preferably with an option in settings to view titles in local or interface language, or just show both, with the local title directly below the interface title. That way those who only want to see titles in their chosen language will be happy, as well as those who want to see all details entered as they appear on the items.
 

Xavier

Hello,
 

Some recent discussions on the forum (here for example) showed that some people prefer seeing the denominations in the language of the issuing country rather than in English. We already introduced a way to show the denomination in both languages in the feature box a few months ago. But a crucial part of the discussion is about how we show the denomination in the title. We considered automating the title based on the data of the coin or banknote, and let people choose their preferred style of title, but we could not find a good solution for such automation yet. The titles currently convey a number of information that are not recorded anywhere else.

 

An alternative idea would to change the way we display search results. As our database now contains the local name for many denominations and rulers, we could show these names below the title, so that people who are used to these names can browse the search results more easily. Here is a mockup:

What do you think about this?

Do you agree this should be applicable to all languages, including Arabic, Chinese, Latin, etc.?

I too prefer the second option 

If we add more and more and more languages automated titles will be inevitable. There is no way I curate in a dozen languages I might know nothing about.
Problem will be that they might be very long especially if they are commemoratives and in a series also a new field for fast identifying markers for similar entries should be introduced (like it is used often right now). The titles on the catalog page itself should also not be like the ones depicted in the search otherwise there will be an enormous amount of redundant information in the title. Or the whole build of a catalog page has to be rethought.

But I hope you are also able to create a solid numismatically focused translation engine that doesn't make so many mistakes like Deeple right now (often strangely involving quite a few food items as mistranslations xD).

I like the idea of showing the information in the coin-language and the interface-language. If the coin-language uses a different script from the interface-language it would be useful to show coin-language-in-native-script and coin-language-in-interface-script (transliterating, or using a commonly used term in the interface language script).

bjherbison

I like the idea of showing the information in the coin-language and the interface-language. If the coin-language uses a different script from the interface-language it would be useful to show coin-language-in-native-script and coin-language-in-interface-script (transliterating, or using a commonly used term in the interface language script).

That would be most inclusive we can get.

My first opinion when I read the message of Xavier, yesterday, was:

Yes, it could be shown below of the title in the interface language, the denomination and ruling authority in the language of the currency. Perhaps a checkbox for hide/show in the member setting page.

Later I thought of other suggestions that are already posted here:

Add a new “language” English with names in local scripts, but this one is better:

inc7007

I like your second option more…

 

But, given we already have multiple interface languages, and will no doubt be adding more…
..and that titles are already in EN and FR and will hopefully translate to all interface languages eventually.

Couldn’t we just add ‘Local’ as an option: -
Local: Wartość – Król (Szczegóły)
EN: Value – King (Details)
FR: Valeur – Roi (Détails)
ES: Valor – Rey (Detalles)

 

All item titles can be entered in their native language, then translated to all interface languages. Preferably with an option in settings to view titles in local or interface language, or just show both, with the local title directly below the interface title. That way those who only want to see titles in their chosen language will be happy, as well as those who want to see all details entered as they appear on the items.
 

According guidelines, at this moment we have names in local scripts (in the original language) in mints, printers, reference catalogues, issuing entities and ruling authorities. Why not also add in currencies and denominations?

Idolenz

If we add more and more and more languages automated titles will be inevitable. There is no way I curate in a dozen languages I might know nothing about.
Problem will be that they might be very long especially if they are commemoratives and in a series also a new field for fast identifying markers for similar entries should be introduced (like it is used often right now). The titles on the catalog page itself should also not be like the ones depicted in the search otherwise there will be an enormous amount of redundant information in the title. Or the whole build of a catalog page has to be rethought.

Current titles of pages of coins and banknotes have the denominations at the beginning. These can be removed from the title and display the denominations of the page (which will translate) in the same position (before the new title):

For example: N#1

Current title = 1 Centime (5th republic)
New titile = (5th republic)
New title displayed = denomination + new title = 1 Centime (5th republic)
Same result, less translation work.

More things can be done, but it this is a start:

• remove from titles the name of rulers, commemorative events, series... that are in the page and can displayed in the search results or within the title…

Of course, if this does not slow down the search or page loading.

Idolenz

But I hope you are also able to create a solid numismatically focused translation engine that doesn't make so many mistakes like Deeple right now (often strangely involving quite a few food items as mistranslations xD).

It is not possible, the automatic translation is like that (just test Google Translator).

Jarcek

bjherbison

I like the idea of showing the information in the coin-language and the interface-language. If the coin-language uses a different script from the interface-language it would be useful to show coin-language-in-native-script and coin-language-in-interface-script (transliterating, or using a commonly used term in the interface language script).

That would be most inclusive we can get.

Now, we will need these transliterations: Latin, Greek, Cyrillic and Japanese.

It is actually possible to train a translator engine and we use trained one for autotranslations of item descriptions. :)

Jarcek

It is actually possible to train a translator engine and we use trained one for autotranslations of item descriptions. :)

Yes, but we can not be surprised by errors: it will be 100% never reliable.😯

Sure, but it is better to have trained model. We actually restricted new languages to the ones where the trained model can exist.

I have been one of the users who has usually defended the title of the currencies in the local language. In any case, reading some of the explanations that have been given in recent days, I was a little surprised by the level of aggressiveness with which some users defended their position. I don't think that is good for the proper development and growth of the website.

One of the things that has continually been commented on is that the Numista "governance team" does not take into account the opinion of the users, since this proposal from Xavier (and his team, I imagine) trying to find an alternative solution to the different opinions that have recently existed on this issue refute the fact that consensual solutions are not sought.

That being said (sorry for the rambling), this solution seems very suitable to me. I don't know if it can be implemented properly (there are commemorative coins whose motif takes up a lot of space), but I think it is a start that could be a good solution to the debate generated lately.

The title of each page is one of the most important fields, in my opinion, on the website, since it is the first thing you see when you search a country in the catalog. Unfortunately, many differences can still be observed depending on the issuing country (with different referees) despite there being guidelines that are supposed to exist to standardize the information between all the items in the catalog. Perhaps, as has been commented here by some, making the title based on certain drop-down lists of face value and rulers would be an option to be considered.

Thanks for taking into account many of the opposing opinions on this topic. 😊

bjherbison

I like the idea of showing the information in the coin-language and the interface-language. If the coin-language uses a different script from the interface-language it would be useful to show coin-language-in-native-script and coin-language-in-interface-script (transliterating, or using a commonly used term in the interface language script).

I would go with this idea except that I would stick to transliterations for all names not in the interface script. Otherwise, we lose information. As an example, we would have:

文一

1 Wén

1 Cash

for this coin. We would lose wén if we used the commonly used term, since that's "cash". In many cases, there is no recognized “English” name, and that will be even more common for other, less international languages, so we'll only need two titles, such as:

 ١  قِرْش  

1 Qirsh

for this coin. I'm sure there will still be some arguments about what the proper foreign name is for a particular piece and we'll need to agree on standards for transliteration but, based on my reading of their contributions, this will satisfy the vast majority of contributors to the recent discussions. We will still face questions over what language to use when there are two to choose from and nothing on the coins to guide us but, if we can decouple this issue from the more general problem of titles, I would hope solutions can be found, such as using both languages.

I should add that I would envisage this appearing whenever the piece is viewed, not only when it appears in a search, as seems to be the original suggestion from Xavier.

Xavier

 

 

An alternative idea would to change the way we display search results. As our database now contains the local name for many denominations and rulers, we could show these names below the title, so that people who are used to these names can browse the search results more easily. Here is a mockup:

 

What do you think about this?

I really like the second option! Would it be possible to have a customizable field that wouldn't necessarily be included in the database? This could be useful for commemorative coins and exonumia. Sometimes, certain tokens or medals have proper names of associations, companies, etc., and I always hesitate to translate them into English because it sometimes loses meaning.

It would be great to be able to translate all of them into English, while still having the original title just below!

Here are two examples:

N#402698 (not translated)

N#316411 (translated)

BasterosSometimes, certain tokens or medals have proper names of associations, companies, etc., and I always hesitate to translate them into English because it sometimes loses meaning.

Keep in mind many companies are not translated (it has not sense). For example:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=3022
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=4244
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=5847
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=2515
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=5811

davidhs

BasterosSometimes, certain tokens or medals have proper names of associations, companies, etc., and I always hesitate to translate them into English because it sometimes loses meaning.

Keep in mind many companies are not translated (it has not sense). For example:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=3022
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=4244
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=5847
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=2515
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/issuing_entity.php?id=5811

Thank you! Do we have a guideline for translating proper nouns? 

Basteros

Thank you! Do we have a guideline for translating proper nouns? 

Are you referring to rulers, banks, companies…? I usually search on Wikipedia.

Also, Numista has some guidelines:

• General guidelines: EN, FR
• Issuing entities: EN, FR
• …

I meant do we have any guidelines about proper nouns? Do we have to translate them or not? When shouldn't they be translated?

If we set a rule that they have to be translated every time, it might be useful to have a dedicated field below the title with the original name.

Basteros

I meant do we have any guidelines about proper nouns? Do we have to translate them or not? When shouldn't they be translated?

If we set a rule that they have to be translated every time, it might be useful to have a dedicated field below the title with the original name.

What about proper nouns for which there is no translation to a particular language? Translating everything is a huge job that adds very little in most cases and will be impossible in many. If a translation exists and is helpful, it can be put in the comments.