Hello, I recently found this 1860 penny, I am confused about the types, if someone could identify the type/variant it'd be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


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I'll try provide the knowledge to answer this yourself rather than just answer directly. So wall of text incoming. 😛
You can always just pick the top option if you don't want to get too hung up in these fractional variations.
With a lot of coins from this era, there are often several tiny tiny variances between coins. Numista typically issues a “generic” example at the top with known variations below.
It's caused by different dies being used in production. If they're not perfect matches, then the coins they produce aren't either.
Incuse means the design is cut in whereas raised is the exact opposite. If you imagine the field of a coin as being flat and you then run your finger along it. If there's a “trench”, that's incuse. If there's a “hill”, that's raised.
A “flan” is the blank piece of shaped metal used to make a coin. Planchet is the more common word these days, but flan is often used historically. So from the coin page, under the general details section, you'll see the thickness of the coin is supposed to be 1.6mm. So an extra thick flan would be anything bigger than that, for example if it was 2mm thick.
Proof coins are ones made for collectors, testing, dignitary gifts, or other non circulating purposes. With ones this old, assume yours is a circulating one unless you have it otherwise proven. E.g. This coin was gifted to the Wizard of Oz on his state visit to Queen Victoria & I can document it's history right to the moment it came into my possession.
“Leaves” refers to the amount of leaves on Victoria's wreath. Different dies have different amounts of leaves. Note how it mentions the lack of signature on the obverse; this implies the signature is visible on the reverse.
The notes about LCW are the engraver. In some examples, his name or initials appear at varying points on the coin. I'm sure that's fairly self explanatory from that point.
You may see “obverse” and “reverse” used, sometimes abbreviated to obv & rev. Obverse means front, reverse means back. Within the confines of the UK, the Monarch's portrait is always the front “obverse”. So on your coin, Britannia is on the reverse.
I think that covers what everything actually is. So let's actually look at your coin!
Quality suggests it was circulation quality so not any of the proof variations. And I can't pick out any signatures on either side so we can discount all of those.
I can't measure the thickness of the flan or feel the lines on the shield. To my eye, they look raised (i.e. you'd feel a raised bump on those lines).
Assuming those lines on the shield are raised and its normal thickness, I'd file it under “Raised lines on shield” - the 11% version.
P.s. As I said, if you really don't want to get lost in the rabbit hole of miniscule variations, or its impossible to decifer (e.g. too worn to tell), use the top “generic” option - the 4% option.
I hope that helps & have fun with your coin hunt.
Really, somebody started to document the 1860 coin, but in a rather disastrous way, since no images followed up all those year lines. Without images, numista should NOT have accepted those changes!
Unfortunately, http://declanmageecoins.co.uk doesn't exist anymore, so I can't even verify the varieties!
Awesome! Thank you for explaining, I was looking in the spinks catalogue and was baffled by the 12+ varieties they've got listed. Its raised lines like you said, I get confused on signatures, the teeth, the beads and berries but it's fine I don't think there's too much difference in rarity. Do you think if I sent it off for grading it would be worth it and would they confirm the variety? I know they do for american coins but not sure if they do with the rest the world
My pleasure - I got confused by it all at first. It actually put me off using Numista for quite a while before I clicked the “generic” & “exact variety” way some are listed. It looked waaaay too much for a lazy casual like me. 😛
Numista, as a whole, has improved greatly with a lot of listings like this having photos to illustrate the difference.
Personally, I agree that it's excessive detail for things like leaves, berries, teeth placement blah blah blah. I get the bigger details like signatures or mint marks, they're quick to identify & prominent (relatively speaking). Most of mine from that era I just file under the top “generic” entry for that year. So the 4% 1860 on this listing.
Grading, outside of spectacular detail quality and/or extreme rarities, is not worth it in my opinion. Even then, I probably wouldn't send it any of my coins in grading, but that's just me. It doesn't really add to the value for most people; most collectors will mentally grade it & value it accordingly. You can tart it up with a fancy box & someone else's “professional” opinion all you like but I won't pay more than what I've valued it at. If it's graded as “very fine” but I only think it looks “good”, I'm only willing to pay “good” levels of money.
It can add a layer of security knowing it's genuine, but that's about it.
I couldn't comment on whether they'd give you the exact variety or not. Never used the services, never bought anything that would have such definitions.
A Collector
My pleasure - I got confused by it all at first. It actually put me off using Numista for quite a while before I clicked the “generic” & “exact variety” way some are listed. It looked waaaay too much for a lazy casual like me. 😛
Numista, as a whole, has improved greatly with a lot of listings like this having photos to illustrate the difference.
Personally, I agree that it's excessive detail for things like leaves, berries, teeth placement blah blah blah. I get the bigger details like signatures or mint marks, they're quick to identify & prominent (relatively speaking). Most of mine from that era I just file under the top “generic” entry for that year. So the 4% 1860 on this listing.
Grading, outside of spectacular detail quality and/or extreme rarities, is not worth it in my opinion. Even then, I probably wouldn't send it any of my coins in grading, but that's just me. It doesn't really add to the value for most people; most collectors will mentally grade it & value it accordingly. You can tart it up with a fancy box & someone else's “professional” opinion all you like but I won't pay more than what I've valued it at. If it's graded as “very fine” but I only think it looks “good”, I'm only willing to pay “good” levels of money.
It can add a layer of security knowing it's genuine, but that's about it.
I couldn't comment on whether they'd give you the exact variety or not. Never used the services, never bought anything that would have such definitions.
I'm the same, I think I'd only ever grade gold to make sure it's gold but even then I don't think I trust the post with it. I shall leave it as simply 1860, I have got a few varieties for other dates, 1926, 1902 etc but nothing as complicated as this date. Very interesting though. While I'm here I may as well ask, is there an 1860 large type or do the big ones end at 1859? If there is a large type, is it extremely rare or do you think the average collector has a chance of finding it?
I'm too poor to have any gold coins, so never have to worry about those. 😛
The 1860 large type probably exists. Some Numista users have contacts at the Royal Mint Museum who have access to a lot of historic records & there's plenty of other book sources. The 32,000 examples figure has to come from somewhere; unknown mintages are often stated as unknown & there's also things where a variant is reported but not verified so no number given again.
So the fact there's a number is reassuring that it has been produced. How many survive is a totally different question though. It had a tiny initial mintage relatively speaking. I can't find any easily up for sale, so it's probably very rare & thus expensive as & when it does appear.
Outside of a lucky find or deep pockets, I'd work on the assumption you'll never get it. But that's the fun of the hunt, maybe you might just get lucky.
What I did was write a list that I'd carry in my wallet, then if I'm rummaging in a charity shop or antiques, whatever, I can refer back to those notes to decide on whether to buy. Though I've not had much luck with coins, I have bought rare books priced at common book prices.
Awesome thank you! I'll keep searching for now :)
Here is an interesting site with the 1860 variants
https://www.allcoinvalues.com/united-kingdom/1860-uk-penny-values2c-victoria2c-varieties.html
Sjoelund
Here is an interesting site with the 1860 variants
https://www.allcoinvalues.com/united-kingdom/1860-uk-penny-values2c-victoria2c-varieties.html
Brilliant thank you!
Sjoelund
Really, somebody started to document the 1860 coin, but in a rather disastrous way, since no images followed up all those year lines. Without images, numista should NOT have accepted those changes!
Unfortunately, http://declanmageecoins.co.uk doesn't exist anymore, so I can't even verify the varieties!
That is sad.
It was a good website for the varieties and interesting explanation.
Hope the owner is okay.
I've not been able to find magee on the web. So I suppose he was/is the age where things might happen for the worse.
The risk of old collectors like me. Nearly 78 now.
78 is Perfectly ripe to enjoy everything in life - including the goodies in your wine cellar.
I still have Chateau Turcaud from 1984 laying round….
nice
I doubt it's drinkable, it'll need some heavy filtering for sure.
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