Modify currency and denominations: Libra, from Principality of Catalonia [opgelost]

I was translating its denominations into Spanish I saw “strange things”. 👽 I write here that I saw and how to solve it in my opinion, but I can not sure about this (I do not collect ancient coins).

In this topic I do not take into account the correct writing of the currency and denominations (I publish this in the translators forum), only the concepts and values.
 

We have these coins, order by face value.
Currency code: 3059 • catalonia_principality

Numista referee: @zegeri (I guess you know more about this and can correct me if I say something wrong)

We have these subdivisions in currencies (I assume these values are correct!):

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Groat = 18 Dineros • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats

Dividing into lines…

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 

1 Florin = 15 Sous • 
1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 

1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 

1 Groat = 18 Dineros • 

1 Principado = 24 Sous • 

1 Trentin = 33 Groats
 

I calculate the value in Libras of each subdivision, according the previous information:

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 1
1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous →  1 Sou = 1/20

1 Florin = 15 Sous → 1 Florin = 15 * 1/20 = 3/4
1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros → 1 Seiseno = 1/40; 1 Dobler = 1 Ardite = 1/120; 1 Dinero = 1/240
1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas → 1 Malla = 1 Obol = 1 Senyal = 1/480; 1 Pugesa = 1/960
1 Groat = 18 Dineros → 1 Groat = 18 * 1/240 = 3/40
1 Principado = 24 Sous → 1 Principado = 24 * 1/20 = 6/5
1 Trentin = 33 Groats → 1 Trentin = 33 * 3/40 = 99/40

but…  according to https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144562.html

1 Libra = 10 Groats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous

1 Sou = 12 Dineros

1 Groat = 1 Real

according to https://www.um.es/lexico-comercio-medieval/index.php/v/lexico/24473/principat and https://www.enciclopedia.cat/gran-enciclopedia-catalana/moneda-catalana

1 Principado = 1 Ducat

according to https://blognumismatico.com/2018/05/22/tercio-de-trenti-barcelona-1618/ and https://tesauros.cultura.gob.es/tesauros/numismatica/1187355.html the relation between Trentin and Real was variable along time

1 Trentin = 35 Reales (before 1618)

1 Trentin = 33 Reales (since 1618)

I assume these last values are correct, so I rewrite the subdivisions:

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 1
1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Groats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous → 1 Croat = 1 Real = 1/10; 1 Sou = 1/20

1 Florin = 15 Sous → 1 Florin = 15 * 1/20 = 3/4
1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros → 1 Seiseno = 1/40; 1 Dobler = 1 Ardite = 1/120; 1 Dinero = 1/240
1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas → 1 Malla = 1 Obol = 1 Senyal = 1/480; 1 Pugesa = 1/960
 

1 Groat = 18 Dineros → Now 10 Groats = 20 Sous; 1 Sou = 12 Dineros → 1 Groat = 24 Dineros
1 Principado = 1 Ducat = 24 Sous → 1 Principado = 1 Ducat = 24 * 1/20 = 6/5
1 Trentin = 33 Groats → Now

1 Trentin = 35 Reales (before 1618) → 1 Trentin (before 1618) = 35 * 1/10 = 35/10 = 7/2

1 Trentin = 33 Reales (since 1618) → 1 Trentin (since 1618) = 33 * 1/10 = 33/10

Some subdivisions change their value so, if the new values are correct, should be updated:

1 Groat = 1 Real = 1/10

1 Trentin (before 1618) = 7/2

1 Trentin (since 1618) =  33/10

and these denominations:

I add information needed for my suggestion of modification
Format: ID denomination • ID currency → text - value - issuing years of coins (problem)

I mark with ❌ where I saw problems, and with ✔️where problems were fixed.

34145 • 3059 → 1 Pugesa - 1/960 - 1479-1516
14875 • 3059 → 1 Obol - 1/480 - 1162-1524
41036 • 3059 → 1 Senyal - 1/480 - 1479-1516
12707 • 3059 → 1 Denier - 1/240 - 1169-1711
10495 • 3059 → 2 Deniers - 1/120 - 1479-1556
10495 • 3059 → 2 Deniers - 1/120 - 1556-1756 (nominal value: Ardite) ✔️ Renamed to Ardite
41021 • 3059 → ⅙ Groat - 1/80 - 1416-1458 (numeric value variable ✔️ Groat numeric value changed
27267 • 3059 → ¼ Groat - 3/160 - 1479-1609 (numeric value variable) ✔️ Groat numeric value changed
29920 • 3059 → ⅓ Groat - 1/40 - 1416-1479 (numeric value variable) ✔️ Groat numeric value changed
9678 • 3059 → 6 Deniers - 1/40 - 1640-1652 (nominal value: Seiseno) ✔️ Renamed to 1 Seiseno
22476 • 3059 → ½ Groat - 3/80 - 1285-1642 (numeric value variable) ✔️ Groat numeric value changed
12313 • 3059 → 1 Groat - 3/40 - 1276-1707 (numeric value variable) ✔️ Groat numeric value changed
29922 • 3059 → ¼ Ducat - 1/4 - 1458-1479 (nominal value: ¼ Pacifico) ✔️ Renamed to Pacifico
27271 • 3059 → 5 Sous - 1/4 - 1640-1643
23134 • 3059 → ½ Florin - 3/8 - 1336-1479 (numeric value 13/40) ✔️ Florin numeric value changed
29921 • 3059 → ½ Ducat - 1/2 - 1466-1472 (nominal value: ½ Pacifico) ✔️ Renamed to Pacifico
27266 • 3059 → ⅔ Ducat - 1/2 - 1618-1641 (value in title: ⅓ Trentin; nominal value: 11 Reales) ❌ Suggestion pending review for Ducats
27270 • 3059 → 5 Groats - 1/2 - 1640-1653 (nominal value and name in Krause: 5 Reales) ✔️ Renamed to 5 Reales

29924 • 3059 → ½ Ducat - 3/5 - 1479-1555 Suggestion pending review for Ducats

29919 • 3059 → 1 Florin - 3/4 - 1336-1479 (numeric value 13/20) ✔️ Florin numeric value changed
27263 • 3059 → ½ Trentin - 33/40 - 1598-1659 (numeric value: 7/4 or 33/20 or 17/10) ❌ Suggestion pending review for Ducats
41023 • 3059 → 1 Pacifico - 1 - 1464-1472 (numeric value 9/10) ✔️ 1 Pacifico numeric value changed
27268 • 3059 → 10 Reales - 1 - 1652 (value in title: 10 Croat; nominal value: 10 Reales) ✔️ Title renamed to 10 Reales

28844 • 3059 → 1 Ducat - 6/5 - 1479-1516 Suggestion pending review for Ducats

29923 • 3059 → 2 Ducats - 12/5 - 1479-1555 Suggestion pending review for Ducats

29923 • 3059 → 2 Ducats - 12/5 - 1598-1652 (nominal value and name in Krause: Trentin) ❌ Suggestion pending review for Ducats

27272 • 3059 → 10 Ducats - 12/1 - 1561-1578 (value in title: 10 Principados; name in Krause: 5 Trentin) ❌ Suggestion pending review for Ducats

Strange denomination

Also, this coin N#377235 has a strange denomination:

Years: 1516-1555

Denomination: 25 Cents (0.25)

Title coin: 4 Ducats

This denomination is temporary, pending review (it does not appear in the select button when we create a new coin). But it is erroneous, of course.

According this https://es.numista.com/forum/topic145005.html#p1162011, the value of 1 Ducat (to 1599) is 6/5.

According the coin, the denomination should be:

Name: 4 Ducats

Numeric value: 4 * 6/5 = 24/5

Subdivisions

Finally, the subdivisions should reflect these corrections. Now they are:

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Groat = 18 Dineros • 1 Principado = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 33 Groats

Dividing into lines, adding the information found at the beginning of this topic, adding the value in Libras of each subdivision and ordering by the value:

1          = 1.0000 – 1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Croats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous

3/4      = 0.7500 – 1 Florin = 15 Sous
1/20    = 0.0500 – 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros
1/240 = 0.0042 – 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas
6/5      = 1.2000 – 1 Principado = 1 Ducat = 24 Sous
33/10 = 3.3000 – 1 Trentin = 35 Reales (before 1618) = 33 Reales (since 1618)

In one line…

1 Libra = 1 Pacifico = 10 Croats = 10 Reales = 20 Sous • 1 Florin = 15 Sous • 1 Sou = 2 Seisenos = 6 Doblers = 6 Ardites = 12 Dineros • 1 Dinero = 2 Mallas = 2 Obols = 2 Senyals = 4 Pugesas • 1 Principado = 1 Ducat = 24 Sous • 1 Trentin = 35 Reales (before 1618) = 33 Reales (since 1618)

Oh. This is long and confusing a bit. @zegeri , can you help please?

I'm overwhelmed by this post. I'll need time and concentration to try to figure it out.

David, couldn't you make a simple and concrete request?

I could split this in a request for each denomination... but I think doing all at once (but step by step) is the best because all is related. When I saw this, at beginning I had a group of subdivisions, but every time I found coins with a wrong denomination, I must changed the subdivisions. And this is the final result.

I divided the request in sections for do it more easy. The most important is review the new relation between the subdivisions. I think is correct but…

The changes in denominations (name or values) can be done when the values of subdivisions are reviewer. Some are more easy to see (e.g. values of Groats) than others.

If you prefer I speak in Spanish to explain how I got to this (here or by PM).

Also I can send individual requests for change a denomination.

But this topic is important for have a global vision.

zegeri

David, couldn't you make a simple and concrete request?

I published requests to:

• ✔️ Modify value of denominations Groat: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144562.html
• ✔️ Add denomination 1 Ardite: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144569.html
• ✔️ Rename denomination 6 Deniers to 1 Seiseno: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144571.html
• ✔️ Rename denominations Ducat to Pacifico: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic146399.html
• ✔️ Rename denominations 5 Groats to 5 Reales: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic146384.html
• ✔️ Modification of title 10 Groats to 10 Reales
• ✔️ Modify value of denomination 1 Pacifico: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic146467.html
• ✔️ Modify value of denominations Florin: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic146468.html
• Suggestion pending review for Ducats: https://es.numista.com/forum/topic145005.html#p1162011

Later I will publish the others.

Is there still needs here?

Compendium

Is there still needs here?

Yes. 😅

Requests without a green check here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic144509.html#p1150849 are pending.

Should be all Good now

Yes.

The value and name of the Ducats need to be revised, but that is pending see for referees. I will it publish in another suggestion when I know what to do.