20 lire 1936, Italy, FAKE or GENUINE?!

Hello, friends!

Please, is there anyone who is able to tell me 100% if the coin shown in the last 2 photos is real or fake?!

It has the right weight of 20g. (as shown) & reeded edge. However I cannot be too sure this is not a worthless copy…

To compare details of design, I have added an internet picture of an another same coin which has been authenticated by an italian numismatic shop.

Thanks for your time and comments!

Hello. 

Look and compare the X and the 6, that are mushies on the one of the Italian numismatic shop. It could be a fakeim

 in Italia there are several fake and these numismatic shop are not always fair ( I saw a lot of fake from them). 

But if you compare with the picture of the pcgs one on the next message, the 3 below on the first image is not the same with a ‘’ hook ‘’ that we do not see on the second image (Italian shop) and do not appear on the pcgs of the next message. 

So both are strange… 

And your seems not to have a correct ‘’ 3 ‘’ compared to the 2 others, including the pcgs 'S one

Regards

Look for a pcgs one

Also, for both the A doesn't feet well compared to pcgs, but your is definitively far away from the pcgs graded one… for the Italian merchant, can be due to the quality pictured, can't tell surely. 

Pcgs

The 2 others, 

The one of the Italian merchant (/pcgs see last A) 

Your, the first A doesn't have a straight line (/pcgs, /merchant see first A) 

Good work there, but no conclusion yet.

I am more interested in the provenance of the piece than the images. 

who did OP buy it from, and who did that person buy it from? 

About his coin, the ‘’ 3 ‘’ has a hook that do not appears on the pcgs nor the Italian one. 

So I think this one is a fake in all case. 

Where does it comes can bring error, cause if it comes from these Italians merchant like the first example, they are not all trustable (too much Chinese fake with that merchant seal, italian also make lot of fakes), and that it is an Italian coin to make confusion. 

Regards. 

Chinese fakes have rounded rim, against flat large rim of the original ones.  Your coin is a fake

alas, not a surprise. there is also that smokey toning, which is a common look among fakery.

would still like to know who is selling this, and what they have to say for themselves.

Thank you all, dear colleagues, for your time, interest and expertise!

Especially for Mr.Midnight who is interested about the origins of the specimens shown in pictures, I'll add that the “authenticated” coin was sold on Catawiki, a well-known selling internet platform (which claims to have its own experts who examine coins before offering them in auctions!)…

And “my” coin belongs to a romanian fellow who some years ago bought 6 “silver” coins on a market in Italy. Soon after he was arrested by the italian police and accused of stealing valuable istoric italian heritage. The 6 coins were confiscated and the romanian (worker in Italy) was sent to trial. The coins were examined by a “professor” of history & numismatics (named to do so by the italian prosecutor). The named expert confirmed that all the 5 italian coins (by only one of the 6: a well-known Maria Theresia 1780 restrike!) are rarities, of very high value, up to 100000€ the 5 lire 1901 (which was among them). Other coins were a 5 lire 1878 (not 1879) of king Umberto, a 5 lire 1914, this 20 lire 1936, a 5 lire 1872R (Rome mint)…Only tremendous rarities! The expert gave e written expertise!

After years of trial, the poor romanian worker was declared innocent of stealing “the historic numismatic italian heritage” by the judges and the police returned him all the coins with documents that these are of great value and that he shall be careful with the fortune he was so lucky to buy for a little amount of €…

The romanian worker returned with the coins in our country and told me this incredible real story! He still has in posesion all the coins and official documents of the “fortune” he has got! 😁 

Nice story. First of all, it's illegal in Italy to export historical coins with more than 70 years without permission. He was charged to keep the coin, not to bring them to Romania. But surely he has a written permission by the Italian Minister..

Second, the coin in the pictures is without doubts a fake, so probably it is not the same analyzed by the expert.

Keep safe

cobrapel

Nice story. First of all, it's illegal in Italy to export historical coins with more than 70 years without permission. He was charged to keep the coin, not to bring them to Romania. But surely he has a written permission by the Italian Minister..

Second, the coin in the pictures is without doubts a fake, so probably it is not the same analyzed by the expert.

Keep safe

I saw all the coins. All are fake! (except the worthless restrike thaler 1780SF) All were analyzed by the “expert” named by the prosecutor, while they were kept safe by the police authorities… 

I also suspected that the coins were changed but by whom, why & when?! My romanian fellow knows almost nothing about coins and he swears that the coins he has are exactly those he received from the police, after the trial's end. I asked him if he is also sure that the coins he received from the police authorities are the same he had bought but he couldn't confirm that too…As he cannot make the difference between 2 “same” coins! 

I repeat, he is a young guy who bought the coins as an opportunity to resell them in Romania, not to collect them as a professional…

Very interesting , thanks for sharing!

Hello. 

The only official stamp that appears on the document is on the first page that is speaking of ‘’ antiquities'', so from the antic period… 

Every pages should have a stamp or a signature…. Not the case here 

Pretty strange. 

Your coin is a fake for sure as we saw. 

How a Romanian worker could find coins that would cost a hand…? 

Where come the opportunity? 

In Calabria deve essere un colpo Della n'dranghetta, MA dimmi Che non esiste 😂

Dunque perché far'Questa domanda? Vuoi vendere in ogni caso,  a un buon prezzo?… Ci sono documenti…!!! Chi sa !!! 

À mi, no, sicure! 

But maybe are u telling police stolen them? 

Could be possible, really. 

Regards, 

Mm

I also find this fake one that is officially a fake and has the same error on ‘’ 3'' that do not appears on the pcgs genuine one.

I always observe the efforts to age, dis-color and distress antiques for the buyers benefit.

 the finger print on that faux piece is really the end!😇

Mr. Midnight

Very interesting , thanks for sharing!

🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤝🤝🤝🤝🤝🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰

Matlo2

Hello. 

 

The only official stamp that appears on the document is on the first page that is speaking of ‘’ antiquities'', so from the antic period… 

Every pages should have a stamp or a signature…. Not the case here 

Pretty strange. 

 

Your coin is a fake for sure as we saw. 

 

How a Romanian worker could find coins that would cost a hand…? 

Where come the opportunity? 

 

In Calabria deve essere un colpo Della n'dranghetta, MA dimmi Che non esiste 😂

Dunque perché far'Questa domanda? Vuoi vendere in ogni caso,  a un buon prezzo?… Ci sono documenti…!!! Chi sa !!! 

 

À mi, no, sicure! 

 

But maybe are u telling police stolen them? 

Could be possible, really. 

 

Regards, 

 

My fellow romanian has a bunch of official documents, I copied only a few. Now I share with you also the last signed page of the document with which the police returned him the coins.

Dear friends, please look here with maximum attention to 2 other “authenticated” historical italian coins of the same lot:

1) The ultra-rare 5 lire 1901 (112 ex. minted, never released in public circulation!)

2) The rare 5 lire 1878 Umberto I

Is the italian “expert” a fool or a crook?!

Also, how is it possible that he evaluated a Maria Theresa restrike 1780SF thaler at 100€, when it is known that the market value is no more than 20-25€?!

Please also read all the story in the italian newspaper!!! 

The only coin of the lot that I doubt to be fake is the 5 lire 1872R. 

May be this one genuine?! What do you think?! 

Hello. 

And no one can tell where did he found it? 

And u tell that one of these was the fake 20 Lire 1936?  (I think he can complain in that case).

And he was disculped without any invoice… 

😂😂😂

I don't find any information on the media Italian websites, maybe do u have a link with more elements? 

I'll try to see more information with the Italian journalist websites. 

Thanks for sharing. 

Regards, 

Ciao, non é scritto nel giornale dove le hanno trovate…

Sicome è suo amico, potrebbe farlo la domanda ? 

Gr1zie à lei

Matlo2

Ciao, non é scritto nel giornale dove le hanno trovate…

Sicome è suo amico, potrebbe farlo la domanda ? 

 

Gr1zie à lei

Ciao! Sorry, I don't speak italian.

First of all (but this is not important!), the young man is not really a friend of mine… He just knew that I am an old coin collector (with some experience 😁😉) and he contacted me with all the story that happened to him…

Second, as he told me and also as the italian officials confirm all the coins were bought by him on an italian “flee market”…

Then, you know the continuing story: the “carabinieri” found the coins on him, for them seemed unlikely that a young emigrant day-worker have such “fortune”, acused him of robbery, etc…

More (but same!) details may be found in the italian newspaper I already have shown to you all!

Friendly regards!

Arrivederci, amico! 🤗

Andi

Matlo2

Hello. 

 

And no one can tell where did he found it? 

 

And u tell that one of these was the fake 20 Lire 1936?  (I think he can complain in that case).

 

And he was disculped without any invoice… 

😂😂😂

 

I don't find any information on the media Italian websites, maybe do u have a link with more elements? 

I'll try to see more information with the Italian journalist websites. 

 

Thanks for sharing. 

 

Regards, 

 

 

 

Not only the 20 lire 1936 was among them…Almost all (the most important coins!) are fakes!

So, let's talk about the more obvious fakes: the 5 lire 1901 and the 5 lire 1878 Umberto!!?

Please, look at all the pictures I shared with you!

And, he may complain against who?! He was found innocent of robbery and the so “valuable” coins were returned to him! 

Remember, please, coins that an official “expert” has evaluated before…

Hello. 

If an expert told they were true, with them he can 1' complain' he was returned fake ones… and suit against x after having contacted a lawyer. So that police could investigate and maybe found corruption. 

Fake, racket, corruption and all can be sadly found, particularly in Southern Italia where criminal group are well known. 

Hope you could stay safe (as American say). 

For the second coin, I let another person confirm or not if same case. 

Another problem is that the origin is not known, he contacted you, you can' ask him where he ‘’ bought'' it. 

Regards

The solution is in the texts you attached. No one said the coins HAVE high value, but they COULD have high value. Probably after the first “unofficial photo check” (first paper) the expert realized that coins are all fakes, so your friend was acquitted of stoling a treasure because “the fact does not exist”.

@cobrapel maybe that's it… 

👍

cobrapel

The solution is in the texts you attached. No one said the coins HAVE high value, but they COULD have high value. Probably after the first “unofficial photo check” (first paper) the expert realized that coins are all fakes, so your friend was acquitted of stoling a treasure because “the fact does not exist”.

 

No, my friend, sorry but you are not right! 

The evaluations reproduced in the italian police documents are exactly those given by the so-called “expert”, not as possible but certain for genuine coins. Police members could not know values like 100000€ for the 5 lire 1901 or 100€ for the restrike Maria Theresa thaler (even if it is not true and the real amount is max.25€!).

The young man was found innocent of robbery and was released with the strong advise of the italian authorities to realise what “historical treasure” he was able to buy by so great luck! 😁

Not a single moment the even possibility of fake coins was taken in consideration! No one!: Not the police, not the judges, not the “expert”, not the press in the newspaper! No one! No one!

All the “criminal” investigation and trial was around if the romanian was a thief (or not!) and how he could own such “valuable” coins!…

Sherlock Holmes, were are you?! 😉

Regards!

Andi

Matlo2

@cobrapel maybe that's it… 

👍

Sorry, no it is not! No real expert may evaluate a 1780SF restrike for 100€! This is not an expert but a fool or a crook! 

And a real expert puts only one final conclusion(s) not several (hypothetically speaking, because he put only the conclusion that the coins are very valuable!)

So if he is not a good' expert maybe he thought they were genuine. 

Or maybe they were genuine and stolen at a moment or the other when sealed. 

Maybe it is a story from another romanian that saw this in newspaper, make fake document and is crooking u. 

For a police stamp, I could have anyone for 15 euros or use a pc… 

I all case, tell your ‘’ contact'' that you are not interested. 

Regards, 

Matlo2

So if he is not a good' expert maybe he thought they were genuine. 

 

Or maybe they were genuine and stolen at a moment or the other when sealed. 

 

Maybe it is a story from another romanian that saw this in newspaper, make fake document and is crooking u. 

 

For a police stamp, I could have anyone for 15 euros or use a pc… 

 

I all case, tell your ‘’ contact'' that you are not interested. 

 

Regards, 

 

Thanks for the advise but: 

1) The 3-rd. possibility is out of discussion, the guy is exactly the person prosecuted in Italy ; he showed me his Identity Card.

2) He contacted me not to sell me the coins but to ask my opinion on all the story, as I am a quite well-known numismatist on several FaceBook groups.

Hello. 

OK. 

So that is pretty strange and u shall be able to contact a lawyer, maybe there are pictures of the coins when sealed by police. 

In Calabria, even police or affiliated may have made a crook… That is not impossible. 

Or maybe the specialist was not a specific numismatic specialist… or linked to a strange criminal story. 

So u confirm u ask us to confirm what u saw…? 

Regards, 

Matlo2

Hello. 

OK. 

So that is pretty strange and u shall be able to contact a lawyer, maybe there are pictures of the coins when sealed by police. 

 

In Calabria, even police or affiliated may have made a crook… That is not impossible. 

 

Or maybe the specialist was not a specific numismatic specialist… or linked to a strange criminal story. 

 

So u confirm u ask us to confirm what u saw…? 

 

Regards, 

 

My dear hobby colleague, I personally am not involved in this case more than you, if I may say so! I just wanted to share with you all this so strange story because I cannot solve the mistery logically…For me, the police is  The Police, an expert is an Expert …and so on, if you understand what I mean. If we manage to change these definitions, then everything  becomes possible!… 

But if you ask me my personal opinion on what the real facts were, I'll say that it is unlikely that a bunch of genuine rare coins were bought on a “flee market”…So, I believe the fake coins were all the time the same, the police didn't change them. It is also unlikely that an official real expert could not see at a glance the fakes… I may suspect that we have to find the solution of this mistery elsewhere: the police and the “expert” wished to find, first, evidence against an emigrant and after some time, for an unknown reason, they changed their mind and gave away the “subject”…

What do you think?!

Facts may have happen like this?!

Friendly regards & all the best!

Andi 🤗

Have a nice day.

      For me, it's a story from a series of illusions. Creating the illusion that there will always be an attempt to gain profit from the sale of fakes.

     These are no longer modern copies of the coin, but deliberately produced forgeries that have a criminal background. The authenticity of everything from stamps to names and everything can only be an illusion.  This is not for the coin collectors laymen and without a proper special focus.

Large groups of specialist-investigators focus on counterfeiters.

    It rarely happens to the people of Norway.

Ivan

Hello. 

I think mimael should be right , and all is an illusion. 

but this migrant story can also be possible. As a lot of explanation are possible. 

Even issue with police, especially in Calabria.

I think we ll not have enough elements to affirm anything there. 

But we keep in mind that strange story for one day. 👍

Regards