Preferred background of transparent banknotes

Hello there!

We would like to launch a discsussion on background of transparent banknotes . Right now, guidelines say that backgrounds should be generally white, however, for banknotes, sometimes black background might be better for transparent notes.

What do you guys think?

PS: Pinging @gyoschak @Oklahoman  @hex7ech  @dkallen78 

Hi,
 

We probably need images with both backgrounds. The example clearly shows that different backgrounds allow to see different details of the image. For example the white background better shows that there is a second bird inside the bigger bird and that the hexagon around “200” is blue-green; the black background better shows the rich details of the feathers of the bird and gives better contrast to the digits “200” in the hexagon, especially the smaller ones.

My suggestion is that we choose one color (white or black) for the picture at the top and clarify the guidelines accordingly; and keep the other picture somewhere else on the page: probably in the comment section or in the examples section.

My personal preference is to keep the white background at the top. It usually gives a better impression of the overall design and the true colors of the banknote.

In my experience, polymer banknotes should be scanned with black background, because many of the see-through windows when scanned with white background just show plain white area, but when scanned with black background, a lot more details can be seen. 

I can make several examples tonight if needed.

I did an overview of the most recent polymer world releases.  When I looked at the materials from Central Banks on their new notes, some were on a light background, and some were on a dark background.  I think they selected based on what would match or show off the color scheme best for the notes.  If we only considered black or white then I agree with Xavier's thoughts.  If we did some research on say yellows, or the Numista sky blue, we might discover that only a single image would be needed to adequately show detail through the windows.

Oklahoman

I did an overview of the most recent polymer world releases.  When I looked at the materials from Central Banks on their new notes, some were on a light background, and some were on a dark background.  I think they selected based on what would match or show off the color scheme best for the notes.  If we only considered black or white then I agree with Xavier's thoughts.  If we did some research on say yellows, or the Numista sky blue, we might discover that only a single image would be needed to adequately show detail through the windows.

A quick example:

It's very easy to see the difference. I've scanned hundreds of polymer banknotes and I can tell for sure that black background is suitable and preferred for 95% of the banknotes.

With the Nicaragua one, I rejected the scan with the black background for three reasons: the scan was the same quality as the current note, the note was the same quality, and the black background didn't reveal more details, it revealed different details. In the case of the Jamaica and Namibia notes however, the black background clearly reveals more details. 

As for a generalized rule/guideline, I think black would be a better background for most cases, however, that's an extra step involved when scanning notes, which isn't a big deal for the numismatic nutcases like us, but it could limit the participation of “regular” users. I think Xavier that we need both.

As a related aside, it would be kind of neat to have the examples section be organized by grade, then users can grade them and the highest grade gets used as the default. For the newbies, it would make evaluating their notes easier and it's something that's easier for a digital-first catalog to do that Pick and others can't.

dkallen78

With the Nicaragua one, I rejected the scan with the black background for three reasons: the scan was the same quality as the current note, the note was the same quality, and the black background didn't reveal more details, it revealed different details. In the case of the Jamaica and Namibia notes however, the black background clearly reveals more details. 

 

As for a generalized rule/guideline, I think black would be a better background for most cases, however, that's an extra step involved when scanning notes, which isn't a big deal for the numismatic nutcases like us, but it could limit the participation of “regular” users. I think Xavier that we need both.

 

As a related aside, it would be kind of neat to have the examples section be organized by grade, then users can grade them and the highest grade gets used as the default. For the newbies, it would make evaluating their notes easier and it's something that's easier for a digital-first catalog to do that Pick and others can't.

Stop using phones when comparing images. Use PC with big monitor instead.

Current images are worse because:

1. They are not cropped at all

2. Rotated a lot to the right

3. Lower resolution

It's obvious which images are better….

Me, ngdawa and gyoschak probably upload more than 90% of the images, so I don't think it will be a problem with scans from “regular users” as you said. 

I don't need the sass. I nominate hex7ech to be the new central america ref. 

Please gentlemen, let's remain respectful.

Coming back to the topic, arguments so far are:

• Both black and white background reveal different details.
• For colored designs on the transparent window, a white background better reveals the colors.
• Many banknotes have a white design on the transparent window, which become invisible on a white background.
• A different background color (e.g. yellow or blue) may help reveal details on more banknotes.

I would like to add one more arguments:

• It looks confusing to me when the background around the banknote is white (because of the design of Numista) but the background behind the banknote is black.

I'd be happy to hear opinions of more people 🙂

Xavier

I would like to add one more arguments:

• It looks confusing to me when the background around the banknote is white (because of the design of Numista) but the background behind the banknote is black.

My numista is dark themed :) with custom css rules.

Which reminds me to bump the dark theme discussion 🤩

Xavier

Please gentlemen, let's remain respectful.

Coming back to the topic, arguments so far are:

• Both black and white background reveal different details.
• For colored designs on the transparent window, a white background better reveals the colors.
• Many banknotes have a white design on the transparent window, which become invisible on a white background.
• A different background color (e.g. yellow or blue) may help reveal details on more banknotes.

 

I would like to add one more arguments:

• It looks confusing to me when the background around the banknote is white (because of the design of Numista) but the background behind the banknote is black.

 

I'd be happy to hear opinions of more people 🙂

I agree with most of this summary. My opinion is that the black background will, a large majority of the time, reveal more details of the notes polymer windows. Therefore, my vote is for black backgrounds behind these windows as the primary image. There are indeed other cases where an off-color background is even better—such as blue—I’ve scanned a large number of notes using different colors, and there’s not a fix-all single solution for us.

Although I do agree that a white border/background around notes sometimes looks bad at Numista, I think we’re far past the point of no return on changing it. Unless you can create a default that automatically adds an-off color border when needed? 

Lastly, I want to avoid poorly cropped black borders on notes being submitted. So unfortunately, we are adding workload to referees by asking for dark backgrounds.

My preference would be to continue primarily using white backgrounds for the main images.

The way I see it, transparent windows are the modern equivalent of the watermark, so we could just display the window under different conditions to highlight details when needed.

I just found this thread now, and is an interesting issue. 

I noticed the “problem” on 2019, when posted the first polymer of my country  N#201623 (dated 2017, but issued 2 years later), and again on the new 2020 notes N#238828 and N#238829 all 3 have the problem the transparent window is limited with a white strip, so with white background, it would not be noticed. 

On notes 2020-2021, the image in window is also white, 50 Pesos note has obverse and reverse pictures with black and white background, respectively, so image is not seen on reverse picture.

On the 2017 issue, the problem is image in transparent window uses an "holographic-like" technique, and there are four “50” numbers, two to be seen from obverse and two from reverse; also an OCR geometrical design.  Of course it is not intended to complicate things to Numista, but for security reasons (I think it was a trail of security techniques, used on a low value note, about 1.5 USD at exchange rate of the moment).

I think the point of Numista is to show the best information to members and general users, and what I like of this site is “rules” and guidelines are frequently modified to adapt them to the different situations, so the information purpose can be fulfilled.

I think the solution is to add picture(s) with different backgrounds and/or illumination directions of the transparent windows, so the details can be properly shown on each case. (Or even the page design may be modified to allow showing more than 1 image on watermark section. Don't hate me, Mr. Programmer 😁)