1787 P.R. 8 Reales Bolivia - is it a period counterfeit [opgelost]

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I bought a coin through an on-line auction (shame on me, never again). It weighs 26.78 grams, it is 42.2 mm diameter and 2.2 mm thick. See photos. My question is whether anyone has seen period counterfeits (that is, coins struck back in the late 1700s or early 1800s to pass as genuine) or if it is more likely to be a current fake coin. The Obverse has a clear double strike on the effigy. Hopefully someone has seen this before and can shed some light.

 

Wilf Sanguesa

Have you ever heard the term of 180* overlapping edges? The 180° overlapped edge impression, where the edge design is struck twice in opposite alignment, is a reliable marker of regal portrait 8 Reales. It distinguishes official mint issues from contemporary counterfeits, serving as a key attribution feature in numismatic study. Check. Report back. What makes you think its fake? The metrology specs look good but we can agree this often times meaning nothing.

John P Lorenzo

https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-Portrait-Eight-Reales-real-Reales/dp/1500497177/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qDy1aTDluUUkY6n6bDrronceD2PAq5OJpvLZW8KcqXsDsvEhpAnT8CN8jv32PLWY.iYV03w_t6MYkU2SVJGInm4gIElWuKa9GzJ_MZQa57Wk&qid=1764778036&sr=8-1

 

An indispensable book if your considering collecting Portrait 8 Reales not in PCGS/NGC/ANACS holders. This piece is not listed in the 1787 CCC grouping. Check the edge. Any overlaps of the circle/square edging?

John P Lorenzo

Thanks for the prompt reply. I had not heard of 180 degree overlapping edges. I will do some research to find photos of the overlapping edges to see what they look like.  When I looked at this coin in Numista and NGC sites, it is supposed to be 38 mm in diameter and weigh just over 27 grams. I could not find an “official” thickness for these coins, so maybe the 2.2 mm thickness is okay. But with my coin being 42.2 mm in diameter, it is exceedingly larger than standard. I have seen where coins are made larger to be relatively close in weight, but I also think that anyone in the late 1700s or early 1800s would have noticed it was significantly larger than normal. Hence I am stumped.

Wilf Sanguesa

This is a photo of the edge. Are these the “overlapping” edges? 

 

Wilf Sanguesa

I have an expert checking this coin. Will report back in 24h. No overlapping seen but Potosi is tough and some regal (legitimate) issues can appear counterfeit but are regal. Currently: CCC vs Regal: Key Considerations

Double-struck effigy: This is a hallmark of CCC production, especially when the doubling is bold and misaligned. Regal mints had tighter die control.

Edge impression: While the edge appears well-executed, the lack of 180° overlap is a strike against regal origin. CCCs often replicate edge tooling but not rotational precision.

Dimensions: The slightly oversized diameter and slightly light weight are consistent with CCCs, especially those struck on locally sourced planchets.

Potosí mint: This mint is notorious for high-quality CCCs, especially from the late 18th century. Many were struck to circulate alongside regal issues and are extremely convincing.

Again this CCC (if a CCC and not regal) is not listed in Gurney's book but new CCC varieties appear all the time. You should also know CCCs of this level normally sell in the $100-200 range on EBAY. Still it may be regal. Lets see what my expert friend has to say.

John P Lorenzo

Thank you so much. I have added three more photos taking the coin out of the flip. And I know, I should have used gloves, but I always forget until after I take the photos, by then it is too late.

 

    

Wilf Sanguesa

Still checking. These two experts … may take a week. Either way will return with a final comment. This is a borderline tough one.

John P Lorenzo

No worries at all. It is really appreciated and no problem at all to wait. I am sure it will be an interesting outcome either way. Cheers and thanks again.

Wilf Sanguesa

Even with these minor anomalies which occur occasionally in Potosi and withe the metrology being near spot on its genuine IMO. If someone says contemporary circulating counterfeits so be it. If you ever go to a Pawn Shop or know someone that can do an XRF analysis - DO IT. Either way you win … even if its a period counterfeits its worth $100-200. Contact me privately if you ever do that XRF analysis … its an intriguing piece. Just curious on its metal alloy assay.

John P Lorenzo

Thank you very much for all the effort. I will contact our town's coin shop and see what they can do. If they can do the test, I will surely report back. I am even more intrigued now than before. Thank you and pass my thanks to your colleagues as well. Cheers.

Wilf Sanguesa

Good morning. Mystery, sadly, solved. Took it to a local coin shop who measured .95 to .96 silver content; which is way above the listed .896 that it should be. Their conclusion is that it is a 1960s counterfeit. Hence the “sadly” part. I will take it in stride and will approach future on-line purchases with a higher degree of scrutiny. Again, thank you to everyone for their input as I learned a lot more about these coins that I ever knew. All the best.

Wilf Sanguesa
Status gewijzigd naar Opgelost (ZacUK, 9-dec-2025, 17:34)

Unfortunately this is NOT the correction conclusion IMO. Unless of course you took it to Luis Lalala of Aureo & Calico and he told you its 20thC fake. Which I seriously doubt! This IMO is a well made 18thC Birmingham Sheffield silver plated Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit. Overview: When analyzing silver artifacts or coins with X‑ray fluorescence (XRF), it’s important to remember that the technique is inherently surface‑sensitive. The X‑ray beam penetrates only a few microns into the material, so the reading reflects the composition of the outermost layer rather than the bulk alloy. This means that if the surface has undergone chemical or physical changes over time, the apparent silver content can be artificially elevated compared to the true internal composition.

One mechanism for this is silver surface enrichment. In alloys where silver is mixed with less noble metals such as copper or nickel, environmental exposure, cleaning, or corrosion can cause those base metals to preferentially dissolve or oxidize. Silver, being more chemically stable, remains and accumulates at the surface. As a result, the outer layer becomes richer in silver, sometimes approaching 90–95% purity, even if the bulk alloy is significantly lower. This phenomenon is well documented in archaeological coins and plated wares.

In the case of Birmingham or Sheffield silver‑plated items, the plating process itself deposits a thin layer of nearly pure silver over a base metal substrate. When tested by XRF, the instrument primarily detects this plating, not the underlying alloy. Thus, a reading of 95% silver is consistent with the presence of a thin but high‑purity silver coating. The same principle applies to period CCC (coin, collectible, or commodity) pieces, where repeated polishing or selective corrosion can leave a silver‑enriched surface that misrepresents the true composition.

This is why XRF results must be interpreted with caution. While a surface reading of 95% silver may suggest high purity, it does not necessarily reflect the bulk composition of the artifact. To confirm whether an item is solid silver or merely plated, complementary methods such as density measurement, deeper‑penetration techniques (like ICP‑MS or fire assay), or cross‑sectional analysis are required. Without these, XRF alone can give a misleading impression of silver content due to surface enrichment effects. See this reference - its not GNL listed but it could be a coin I would not mind doing more research on its metallurgical makeup. See this reference: https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-Portrait-Eight-Reales-real-Reales/dp/1500497177/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ON96MNZYYND1&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.dfPszcETag57m7IW7mszl0aw2cATkohAHYlAEi3lMCCESgNHLhdWNXslFqZC3gN-jM1UZD6lQVqf7jiQUfQy8-AP6F8yfJGh-XGjBQPyg7g.QauDMUggGfUO0jfc-_yy6V1Vik_rD3_p_h-6p18v2Vw&dib_tag=se&keywords=gurney+8+reales&qid=1765304251&sprefix=%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-1

John P Lorenzo

Once again, I cannot express in words my gratitude at the deep details and insights. Humbling. You know, I may actually take you up on the suggestion to take it Aureo & Calico. I was born in Barcelona and have been planning a trip back with my family so they can enjoy the incredible history, architecture and the amazing food!!! I will bring the coin with me and hopefully I can drop in for their hands-on thoughts. If not, I will see if my parents or brother can take it in next time they are in Barcelona. Thanks again for all your help!!

Wilf Sanguesa

colonialjohn

Unfortunately this is NOT the correction conclusion IMO. Unless of course you took it to Luis Lalala of Aureo & Calico and he told you its 20thC fake. Which I seriously doubt! This IMO is a well made 18thC Birmingham Sheffield silver plated Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit. Overview: When analyzing silver artifacts or coins with X‑ray fluorescence (XRF), it’s important to remember that the technique is inherently surface‑sensitive. The X‑ray beam penetrates only a few microns into the material, so the reading reflects the composition of the outermost layer rather than the bulk alloy. This means that if the surface has undergone chemical or physical changes over time, the apparent silver content can be artificially elevated compared to the true internal composition.

One mechanism for this is silver surface enrichment. In alloys where silver is mixed with less noble metals such as copper or nickel, environmental exposure, cleaning, or corrosion can cause those base metals to preferentially dissolve or oxidize. Silver, being more chemically stable, remains and accumulates at the surface. As a result, the outer layer becomes richer in silver, sometimes approaching 90–95% purity, even if the bulk alloy is significantly lower. This phenomenon is well documented in archaeological coins and plated wares.

In the case of Birmingham or Sheffield silver‑plated items, the plating process itself deposits a thin layer of nearly pure silver over a base metal substrate. When tested by XRF, the instrument primarily detects this plating, not the underlying alloy. Thus, a reading of 95% silver is consistent with the presence of a thin but high‑purity silver coating. The same principle applies to period CCC (coin, collectible, or commodity) pieces, where repeated polishing or selective corrosion can leave a silver‑enriched surface that misrepresents the true composition.

This is why XRF results must be interpreted with caution. While a surface reading of 95% silver may suggest high purity, it does not necessarily reflect the bulk composition of the artifact. To confirm whether an item is solid silver or merely plated, complementary methods such as density measurement, deeper‑penetration techniques (like ICP‑MS or fire assay), or cross‑sectional analysis are required. Without these, XRF alone can give a misleading impression of silver content due to surface enrichment effects. See this reference - its not GNL listed but it could be a coin I would not mind doing more research on its metallurgical makeup. See this reference: https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-Portrait-Eight-Reales-real-Reales/dp/1500497177/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ON96MNZYYND1&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.dfPszcETag57m7IW7mszl0aw2cATkohAHYlAEi3lMCCESgNHLhdWNXslFqZC3gN-jM1UZD6lQVqf7jiQUfQy8-AP6F8yfJGh-XGjBQPyg7g.QauDMUggGfUO0jfc-_yy6V1Vik_rD3_p_h-6p18v2Vw&dib_tag=se&keywords=gurney+8+reales&qid=1765304251&sprefix=%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-1

⬆️⬆️ Everyone thinks these answers are AI generated, to drum up business for himself and up his knowledge. ⬆️⬆️

 

I am not commenting on the coin itself but having a high purity silver coating can also be done today, I know of genuine coins which have been given a coating to bling them up for resale. Having a 95% silver coating doesn’t mean it is a real coin, a contemporary fake or a modern fake - only that at its surface 95% silver has been applied.

„If your reply or post in the Forum stinks of AI, I will call you out! Knowledge comes from experience, the I in AI stands for incompetence.“

A high-purity silver coating, even at 95%, is only evidence of surface treatment and cannot by itself determine whether a coin is genuine, a contemporary counterfeit, or a modern fake. Coatings have been used historically to disguise base-metal cores, and they are still applied today to genuine coins simply to enhance their appearance for resale. In both cases, the metallurgical finding tells us only that silver was deposited on the exterior, not what lies beneath or how the coin should be classified.

For numismatic diagnostics, surface purity must always be paired with deeper analysis: weight, core composition, die characteristics, and provenance. A plated coin may carry historical interest if it is a contemporary counterfeit, or it may be numismatically irrelevant if it is a modern alteration. The key is to treat silver coating as a neutral fact—one data point among many—rather than a conclusion about authenticity or origin. Hopefully its on its way to Aureo & Calico for a second opinion! Its a very well made coin. Which is why its a Birmingham Sheffield type based on its XRF analysis and all the previous comments. Sometimes I agree only COIN IN HAND is needed for something as you say here CASE CLOSED. <BG>

John P Lorenzo

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