General "War" tag seems to have disappeared?

Hi,

Just noticed the general “War” tag seems to have disappeared, the only options now being Seven Years' War or Thirty Years' War?

Is this a bug?

Concerned that we can't tag other conflicts now.

Thanks

Simon

Yeah that's a tat odd. Maybe because some people complained about periods that use wars as issuing entities it was decided to use tags instead to group items?

I stand by my request to have Seven Years War removed from UK ruling authorities - it made no sense.

I don't see any connection between these two issues. There have been 1000s of conflicts recorded on medals, to single out two also makes no sense to me. Also existing medals have the tag “War” which is now not available.

?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?k%5B%5D=8

Never mind. I see now. A new WAR tag can't be made.  Probably a bug.

Nice, now go a step further and try to select the super category.

Already did. But can't.

Technically no, but piratically yes. Before the specific wars it was the single option and as such selectable. Now that it has sub-categories you can't select it because it is a super category the same with Animal etc. (as far as I am aware non are selectable).

Work in progress. I will rework it later today.

Now we have the Revolution or civil war tag on the Events group, and different tags for wars and conflicts on the Wars and conflicts group.

What is the correct way to work with these tags? Is this right?

• Events
  • Revolution or civil war – for objects with a revolution or war in the design or lettering (commemoration…).
    Could be renamed to Revolution or war, for include commemorations of any war or conflict?
  • …
• Wars and conflicts – for objects issued during a war or conflict
  • Eighty Years' War
  • Napoleonic Wars
  • Seven Years' War
  • Thirty Years' War
  • War – old tag whose objects should be moved to war as event, or to new specific tag in the Wars and conflicts group.

War is already a specific tag in Wars and conflicts.  Revolution or civil war should be moved under Wars and conflicts.

I am not sure, this is the why my doubts.

Until now, wars and conflicts could be defined as ruling authorities:

• For siege coins, add the siege or the war as a ruling authority. 
  ✔️ 1 Kreuzer - Maria Theresia (Siege of Prague) (the coin has two ruling authorities: Maria Theresa and Seven Years War)
   

but today this rule was deleted from the guidelines, and the siege or the war is defined as a tag in the Wars and conflicts group. For example: N#86260

In my opinion, it is different for the object mentions a war (Events > Revolution or civil war), than the object was issued during a war (Wars and conflicts > A specific war).

@Jarcek 

Maybe so. It's a little blurry to me, too. When “Wars” was inserted under the newly renamed “Wars and conflicts” the top level tag took on a new meaning. As I understand it (not that I really understand it) the Revolution or civil war under Events is for intra- country wars (civil wars or wars/uprisings against the ruling authority) and Wars under  Wars and conflicts is now for inter country wars (wars between different countries). (If all that makes sense.)

Oh, standard fallout. One decision breaks something else. We will discuss and most probably reorganize those tags a bit.

rsirian1

Wars under  Wars and conflicts is now for inter country wars (wars between different countries).

As I understand, if the wars as ruling authorities are replaced by tags in the Wars and conflicts group,. this group can contain tags for any type of war, conflict, rebellion or similar  For example, in Spain we could have object from these conflicts:

• Reapers' War – 1640-1652 ⚠️ Now it is a ruling authority, recently created.
• War of the Spanish Succession – 1701-1715
• Peninsular War – 1808-1814
• Carlist Wars – 1833-1876
• Cantonal Rebellion – 1873-1874
• Spanish Civil War – 1936-1939 ⚠️ Now it is an old issuer, pending to convert into ruling authority, but now…

Jarcek

Oh, standard fallout. One decision breaks something else. We will discuss and most probably reorganize those tags a bit.

Yes. 🤣

Some comments:

• If Events > Revolution or civil war is related only to “internal conflicts” as say rsirian1, then we need another tag related to international conflicts (Events > International conflict or war), although maybe a single tag could be used (Events > Revolution or war).
• To better identify the war in the Wars and conflicts group, the years could be added in the name:
  • Wars and conflicts > Eighty Years' War (1568-1648)
  • Wars and conflicts > Napoleonic Wars (1803-1815)
  • Wars and conflicts > Seven Years' War (1756-1763)
  • Wars and conflicts > Thirty Years' War (1618-1648)
• This tags are specials, and will be many. Maybe should be listed in other page (not in https://en.numista.com/catalogue/tags.php ), and show in the blue box of the object, near the issuer and ruling authority.

Another comment… I suppose you want take advantage of the tags field for this but I think adding here a Wars and conflicts group here creates confusion, because the meaning is different, as I wrote in https://en.numista.com/forum/topic174731.html#p1328663

The concept is well, defining the war or conflict independently of the issuer. Maybe a new field “War or conflict” can be created to add these tags (the values could be seen as tags, or options, similar to other fields, as techniques, or scripts).

Another option is the system save the war or conflict as a tag, but the interface display the war or conflict (the text and the edit button) as a different field.

Hello,

Up to now, the siege coins had a secondary ruler to indicate the war during which they were issued. These “rulers” were convenient but somehow contradictory with our definition of ruler/period and they made the list of rulers of each country confusing, in the search filter for example. They were also often mis-used to just indicate a commemorated event.

Although a dedicated field might have been the ideal solution, we opted to use tags. Tags have a more general purpose than rulers. They are also more flexible, if we want to link items that are related to a given war without necessarily being a siege coin.

We are currently in the process to create the needed tags to replace the war rulers created for siege coins.

Additionally, since we consider that the indication of the war during which a siege coin was issued is a key piece of information, the war is also visible in the feature box for siege coins which have a war tag.

The overlap and ambiguity between the tags “War” and “Revolution of civil war” indeed needs to be addressed. These tags were created before the work on the siege coins started, and both topics are quite independent. We'll discuss that internally. Feel free to suggest solutions.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic174731.html#p1329215

Xavier

Additionally, since we consider that the indication of the war during which a siege coin was issued is a key piece of information, the war is also visible in the feature box for siege coins which have a war tag.

I see you applied this: 😉

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic174731.html#p1328762

davidhs

Another option is the system save the war or conflict as a tag, but the interface display the war or conflict (the text and the edit button) as a different field.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic174731.html#p1329219

Xavier

The overlap and ambiguity between the tags “War” and “Revolution of civil war” indeed needs to be addressed. […] Feel free to suggest solutions.

I think the ideas suggested here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic174731.html#p1328682 could avoid the confusion and the overlap between both concepts of “war” tags.

The current problem is that the contributor find, on the "Tags" field, tags related to the subject of the object, and its origin or purpose. For example, if the contributor search tags with the world “tag” here N#86260, they find this:

I see two cases:

• If the object was issued in the context of the Seven Years' War, the Seven Years' War tag should be added. But… Will the contributor consider adding this tag? Even… Will the contributor know about this tag? I do not think so.
• If the object is issued now commemorating the Seven Years' War, the Revolution or civil war tag (better: Revolution or war, see my comment about the name of this tag in the same message) should be added (because the object commemorate a war). The contributor will search for tags related to wars and will find Revolution or civil war and Seven Years' War. I am sure the contributor will select both tags because the object commemorates a war, specifically the Seven Years' War.

My suggestion, display two fields (select boxes with options-tags):

• Conflict, displayed in the “Overall information” field set, near the issuer and ruling authority, and only tags of the Wars and conflicts group are show here. The contributor will see the field “Conflict” and will probably try to find the war when the object was issued, do not find the Revolution or civil war tag.
• Tags, displayed in the “References” field set, as now, and all tags except the Wars and conflicts group are show here. The contributor will search for tags related to wars and will find only Revolution or civil war.

The other suggestion that I made… Ruling authorities (persons or periods), and currencies, have the years in parentheses. This helps to find and understand what they are. The same applies to wars or conflicts. There will be many, and more and more of them, so displaying the year in the name of each conflict will be very useful.

Regarding the tags “Events > #Revolution or civil war” and “Wars and conflicts > #War”:

These two tags significantly overlap, even if it's not a 100% overlap:

• Some revolutions can be quite peaceful.
• Some coins currently with tag #War are about the army or military decorations, not about a specific conflict.

But generally speaking, the concept of “Revolution or civil war” is included in the concept of “War”. And I see no real reason to differentiate civil wars from interstate wars.

So I suggest we just merge them into a tag “#War or revolution”. The tag would be at top-level (not inside any category).

And we rename the category “Wars and conflicts” into just “Conflicts”. The category is intended to list all the wars currently stored as rulers, so that siege coins can be associated with the specific war during which the siege occurred. We might want to add tags for more conflicts in a later phase, beyond the wars that had siege coins.

Xavier

the concept of “Revolution or civil war” is included in the concept of “War”. And I see no real reason to differentiate civil wars from interstate wars.

 

So I suggest we just merge them into a tag “#War or revolution”. The tag would be at top-level (not inside any category).

 

And we rename the category “Wars and conflicts” into just “Conflicts”. 

+1

@Xavier with this new way of using tags, I advise you update guidelines accordingly

Wars as context of production are not “major devices depicted on the coin”

https://en.numista.com/help/tags-133.html

Even if I understand how sub optimal it was, I find sad we lost wars pages (they were very useful to get a whole picture on those wars, major numismatic contexts). And tag solution is also sub optimal, even if its your call obviously.

I also bet you will have same misusage issue (people will use the tag for commemorated event) as its not a field issue, but a referee training issue about guidelines 

Compendium

@Xavier with this new way of using tags, I advise you update guidelines accordingly

Wars as context of production are not “major devices depicted on the coin”

https://en.numista.com/help/tags-133.html

+1

And please, specify how should be use the Coat of arms and Monarch tags.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic155072.html

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic155073.html

Compendium

I also bet you will have same misusage issue (people will use the tag for commemorated event) as its not a field issue, but a referee training issue about guidelines 

As I said here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic174731.html#p1329281 the problem is the user see  both types of tags in the same field.