Just found some coins from Abkhazia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazian_apsar
They look nice, I guess mainly collectors coins. Surprised nobody has them since Abkhazia is not listed as a country yet.
It's not a country, it is only recognised by Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Nauru, while the Georgian government, United Nations and the majority of the world's governments consider Abkhazia a part of Georgia's territory.
And those are not circulating coins.
Isn't that the same type of separatist territory as Transnistria? The only difference is their rouble is circulating. What would we say about shitty nations like Seborga or Sealand which are more fantasy nations or tourist traps?
PS: please note that Abkhazia has been restored in the country listing
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Citeer: "chomp-master"
PS: please note that Abkhazia has been restored in the country listing
Abkhazia should NOT be in the main listing.
The Abkhazian medal-coins,which can be seen here; http://www.nb-ra.org/en/Coins.htm are NOT even circulation issues at all.
The Apsar is actually an unrecognised currency unit with no subdivisions at all.
Aidan.
And what about Andorran Diner/santims and San Marino Scudi? Unrecognized but still listed, right?
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Citeer: "BCNumismatics"Abkhazia should NOT be in the main listing.
I think that all the unrecognized and partially recognized countries (Tannu Tuva, Transnistria, Taiwan, Abkhazia, etc.) should be in some separate list. But they should be listed somehow. You may call it occupational coinage, but it's coinage anyway.
Citeer: "BCNumismatics"Abkhazia is actually one of Georgia's provinces - illegally occupied by Russia!
Those Abkhazian medal-coins should NOT be in the main section of the catalogue!
They deserve to be listed under 'Tokens - Abkhazia' - as they have been issued by an illegal Russian-backed anti-Georgian puppet regime!
As the Apsar does NOT circulate,it is a medal-coin currency unit.
Aidan.
Citeer: "chomp-master"=1emAnd what about Andorran Diner/santims and San Marino Scudi? Unrecognized but still listed, right?
Andorra & San Marino are fully recognised countries.
Aidan.
No care about the countries but about the currencies.
If you want unrecognized countries AND currencies, take Sealand and Seborga, only recognized by simili-states in similar situations. No "real country" recognize them as a country, but Abkhazia is recognized by Russia at least, making it more legitimate than these pieces of shit. Delete the fantasy ones first before trying to debate about true politics or about separatism.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Citeer: "scceda"Abkhazia is NOT occupied by Russia! It is an independent country, although recognized only by a handful of countries.
It's a complicated problem. Previously, in the beginning of 1990s, it was an independent separatist movement. It was supported by Chechens (who wanted to separate from Russia), so Russia couldn't participate in the war at the same side with Chechens. But later, when Saakashvili came to power and started moving Georgia towards Western Europe, Russia started to support Abkhazia. And it's hard to say how far did this support go.
The "occupation" term is more a question of point of view as it's an agreement of the Abkhazian separatist government allowing Russia to deploy a specific amount of troops inside the territory. This agreement is probably unrecognized by Georgia, making this deployment an occupation for them. Which countries would follow which position? I don't know for every one, but I think more nations would agree Georgian point of view than Russian/Abkhazian one.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Illegally claimed by Serbia? Kosovo is part of Serbia since 6th century and those who self proclaimed independance came there in 1950s. Kosovo is literally stolen by force.
So called Kosovo Liberation Army is indeed an terrorist organization that killed thousands of civilians. They burned hundreds of Serbian churches and monasteries. They are involved in the biggest illegal organ trafficking in the history of the world. They were cuting war prisoners (Serbian civilians) and taking their organs and seling them. All Kosovo leaders are mafia bosses and are dealing drugs throughout Europe. Eu and U.S. Leaders are aware of all the things but for some reason they decided to close their eyes. The real victims were Serbs but again, Serbs were firstly killed but than judged for comiting murder.
i don't know lot about Abhazia and Crimea (I have my opinions) but I know about Kosovo. What so called democratic civilized western world have done there is inddeed shame for the humanity.
According to Wikipedia, the following are the current countries with limited recognition that control their own territory. It would seem reasonable to list them as countries in the Numista catalogue (even if in a separate category) if they currently issue circulating coins or once they issue such coins. If/when they issue non-circulating coins, they can be listed in tokens. Can everyone agree to use such an objective standard instead of needing political passion to intervene when Numista should accommodate everyone regardless of nationalistic beliefs. Statistics are based on recognition among 193 United Nations members, as well as recognition by non-UN members or no recognition.
Taiwan (in Numista catalogue) recognition by 21 UN members and Vatican Abkhazia (removed from Numista catalogue) recognition by 6 UN members (2 later withdrawn) and 3 non-UN members Kosovo recognition by 108 UN members and Taiwan (not recognized by UN itself which is considered administrator by Russia and Serbia and other countries) Northern Cyprus recognition by Turkey only Palestine (in Numista catalogue but only as British colony, if starts issuing circulating coinage again could be continued) recognition by 136 UN members (more than Kosovo) and Vatican Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (in Numista catalog as Western Sahara, not really appropriate as Morocco occupies the area of greatest population) recognition by 84 UN members (39 withdrawn) South Ossetia recognized by 5 UN members and 3 non-UN members Nagorno-Karabakh (in Numista catalogue) recognized by 3 non-UN members Transnistria (in Numista catalogue) recognized by 3 non-UN members Somaliland (in Numista catalogue) recognized by no country
Sovereign Military Order of Malta (in Numista catalogue as Malta, Order of) a special case, maintains diplomatic relations with 105 states but has no territory
Citeer: "Coinman48"According to Wikipedia, the following are the current countries with limited recognition that control their own territory. It would seem reasonable to list them as countries in the Numista catalogue (even if in a separate category) if they currently issue circulating coins or once they issue such coins. If/when they issue non-circulating coins, they can be listed in tokens. Can everyone agree to use such an objective standard instead of needing political passion to intervene when Numista should accommodate everyone regardless of nationalistic beliefs.
I think that they should be listed in a separate list. And it's also possible to add there unrecognized countries of the past, like Tannu Tuva. And disputed territories like Falkland Islands.
Also, in each of these sections should be links to the recognized country that claims its rights to these de-facto states. For example, from the section of Taiwan should be a link to China, and vice versa.
There is another topic made to debate about what would be a country or not.
And to answer, there are unlisted separatist nations like Biafra or Katanga. Moreover, you don't take in consideration overseas territories (British, Dutch, French), and former colonies (including autonomous territories of China which are still listed under the same name as the former British and Portuguese colonies).
Anyway, why wouldn't we debate about them in the concerned topic?
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Citeer: "ciscoins"
And disputed territories like Falkland Islands.
I think the United Kingdom pretty clearly won that dispute in the early 80's.
Imagine the following situation. Person A owns a house, but doesn't use it for a long time. Person B comes to that house, occupies it and lets other people live there, without even informing "A". Organizes some kind of a squat. Then "A" finally remembers that he owns the house and tries to get there - but is kicked out by "B". And surely everyone who lives in the house will say that the house belongs to "B", because "B" let them live there. Did "A" lose his property rights? No, he is just less powerful by this moment than "B". Did "B" get any rights for the house? No, he just has enough power to kick "A" out of his property.
Citeer: "ciscoins"
And disputed territories like Falkland Islands.
I think the United Kingdom pretty clearly won that dispute in the early 80's.
Imagine the following situation. Person A owns a house, but doesn't use it for a long time. Person B comes to that house, occupies it and lets other people live there, without even informing "A". Organizes some kind of a squat. Then "A" finally remembers that he owns the house and tries to get there - but is kicked out by "B". And surely everyone who lives in the house will say that the house belongs to "B", because "B" let them live there. Did "A" lose his property rights? No, he is just less powerful by this moment than "B". Did "B" get any rights for the house? No, he just has enough power to kick "A" out of his property.
But the reality is much more complicated. Often there were wars, treaties, annexation, mixing of peoples and so on so both sides have good arguments. But if every country reclaims all territory that once was theirs, then we need 10 more worlds- and honestly I don't know where to find more worlds out there.
I used to think that there is an easy and fair way to decide which country should rule about which territory: a referendum. But there are also many cases where this doesn't seem fair to me. West Sahara was clearly occupied by Morocco and Tibet by China. Both countries encouraged their people to move to these regions and now the original population is a minority and there is the new question about who shall have the right to vote... Like that it is a conflict without end. Transnistria, Abkhazia... are different but also similar cases. (Germany did solve these problems e.g. with the border disputes with France and Poland and only living in peace with the neighbours leads to stability and prosperity....)
Regarding the coins I think we should list those coins in the catalog that are really circulating, like e.g. the Transnistrian ones. Those that are not circulating like the Apsar, the West Sahara Peseta but also Andorra Dinars and San Marino stuff are "fantasy coinages".
I'm not orange and also in other things I'm not a Donald at all. DonChori like Don Felipe or Doña María, por favor.
