Hello! While we're reorganizing some country listings, it is my belief that Newfoundland should be separated from "Canadian provinces" and given its own listing in Numista. Here's why.
76 Years Later
Canadian Confederation occurred in 1867 with the goal of uniting the British Empire's poorly organized North American colonies. Confederation ended the existence of Upper and Lower Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick as separate entities within one Empire - entities you may recognize in the "Canadian Provinces" listing. Manitoba and the huge North-West Territories joined in 1870, British Columbia joined in 1871, and Prince Edward Island joined in 1873. This ended the territorial expansion of Canada for decades: subsequent provinces (such as mine, Alberta) were partitioned from land previously held by the North-West Territories.
Newfoundland joined Confederation in 1949, 76 years later! This was a hotly contested decision, and the referendums held in Newfoundland that decided it were quite close. This is the first of the major differences separating Newfoundland from the other provinces - most importantly, it stayed out of Confederation for far longer than any other province, and for decades it enjoyed a level of self-government and independence equal to Canada's.
The Dominion of Newfoundland
The British gave the new nation of Canada the status of a "Dominion" - a self-governing part of the British Empire, with the full power to decide its own domestic policy - in 1867. Canada was the first Dominion, but more would follow. Australia became a Dominion in 1901, Newfoundland in 1907, New Zealand in 1907, South Africa in 1910, Ireland in 1922, India in 1947, Pakistan in 1947, and Ceylon in 1948. You may notice how all of these countries are fairly important, and all are independent and have their own Numista entries today.Did you notice how Newfoundland is also in that list? Dominion status gave Newfoundland self-government and legal equality with Canada, Australia, and others within the British Empire, a status never attained by any other future Canadian province.
So, if Newfoundland was so independent, how did it end up within Canada? Well, Newfoundland incurred a considerable war debt when it sent its men to fight in WWI, and was unable to pay off that debt. (The United Kingdom seemed unconcerned that this debt had been incurred because of Newfoundland's exceptional loyalty to the British Crown.) Instability swept the cash-strapped island and the British came up with a solution - they would revoke Newfoundland's self-government in return for a comprehensive aid package, which happened in 1933. (Newfoundland actually offered to become a province of Canada in 1933, but Canada refused, seeing the island as a liability.) This revocation of self-government was just about unique in the British Empire.
During WWII, the strategic importance of Newfoundland was realized, as the island held the key to the North Atlantic and Allied airbases there were absolutely vital to defeating the Axis' navies. American, British, and Canadian soldiers poured into military bases on the island. The rich Americans made a great impression on the islanders, to the chagrin of the British and Canadians - talk of annexation to the United States became increasingly serious. Desperate to prevent annexation, and with the broke British eager to pay off their own war debt to Canada, the British and Canadian governments collaborated to get Newfoundland into Canadian Confederation, and two very close (and somewhat suspect) referendums in 1949 finally saw Newfoundland enter Canada. Britain was duly rewarded with an extremely generous loan package from Canada.
If Quebec declared independence today, would its modern coins be grouped with all the old colonial issues in "Canadian provinces"? Probably not - it would deserve a new listing. Newfoundland's coins, issued by an independent nation 70 years after the copper tokens in "Canadian provinces" lost their validity, also deserve a new listing.
Newfoundland's Currency
Newfoundland issued its own currency for many decades, in all denominations, coins and banknotes both. This is totally unlike the sporadic, low-denomination issues seen in other provinces (for instance, the only coin ever issued by Prince Edward Island was a low-value one-year type). The Newfoundland Dollar was much like the Canadian dollar, but its coins were struck to a higher fineness of silver and the designs were vastly different. Also interestingly, Newfoundland got its own gold coins - the Newfoundland gold $2 coin is older than Canada's own $5 and $10 gold coins by about 50 years. In fact, Newfoundland was by far the smallest British territory ever to have gold coins produced for it.
Geography and Distance
Newfoundland has always been a bit different from the other provinces, culturally and geographically. It's not accessible by road from the rest of Canada (North Quebec and Labrador look large on a map, but the population there is incredibly low) and the Island has historically answered to London rather than Ottawa. In fact, the distance between St. John's and Ottawa is 1770 kilometers: this same distance will take you to the Azores, across the Atlantic.
Newfoundland is also traditionally separated from the rest of Atlantic Canada. The ferry from Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia to Newfoundland is a 7-hour journey, embarking twice a day - hardly a convenient trip. For these reasons, Newfoundlanders did not think of themselves as Canadians until fairly recently. (Newfoundland was Britain's very first colony, so they have had lots of time to develop a unique identity.)
The catalog as it stands now
Numista's current Canadian Provinces listing is about half Newfoundland coins, half coins from all other provinces combined. This is a bit silly.
The 2012 Charlton Catalogue of Canadian Coins, the single most respected and accurate Canadian coin catalogue, lists the Canadian provinces like so:
p. 16 - Nova Scotia p. 17-18 - New Brunswick p. 19 - Prince Edward Island p. 20-39 - Newfoundland
Newfoundland gets 19 pages, compared to 4 for all the other Atlantic provinces combined. Do they really belong together?
No matter how you look at it, historically, legally, geographically, Newfoundland is, and has always been, in a class of its own. This is why I think it should get the listing it deserves.
Now that is a beautiful argument for Newfoundland as its own country. I would tend to agree with your assessment as well. It has a more legitimate claim then some other "countries" on the list. I hope this happens.
After a few researches, I agree with this statement, Newfoundland (FR: Terre-Neuve) should be listed apart from the Canadian Provinces to become a new country in our list.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
As this topic has been ignored for a few months, I think we have to up it
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I would like to add my weight behind the suggestion of New Foundland being separated from Canadian Provinces.
Reason.
If Lundy can have a separate listing and that is only a small island in the Bristol Channel, and the coins were illegally produced, then New Foundland deserves and merits it's own listing.
Coinman1
Citeer: COINMAN1I would like to add my weight behind the suggestion of New Foundland being separated from Canadian Provinces.
Reason.
If Lundy can have a separate listing and that is only a small island in the Bristol Channel, and the coins were illegally produced, then New Foundland deserves and merits it's own listing.
Coinman1
Even other separatist nations can be listed. Transnistria is mentioned here even legally part of Moldavia. Western Sahara is in legal dispute with Marocco since a few decades. My only regret is about another country in similar situation (as a separatist country): Abkhazia, which have its own coinage in Apsar (only this silver coinage, Abkhazian roubles are pure fantasy). I already made another topic about.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Citeer: COINMAN1I would like to add my weight behind the suggestion of New Foundland being separated from Canadian Provinces.
Reason.
If Lundy can have a separate listing and that is only a small island in the Bristol Channel, and the coins were illegally produced, then New Foundland deserves and merits it's own listing.
Coinman1
Even other separatist nations can be listed. Transnistria is mentioned here even legally part of Moldavia. Western Sahara is in legal dispute with Marocco since a few decades. My only regret is about another country in similar situation (as a separatist country): Abkhazia, which have its own coinage in Apsar (only this silver coinage, Abkhazian roubles are pure fantasy). I already made another topic about.
I would not compare those modern controversies to Newfoundland simply because those regions are still contested and often at war, so emotions run high. With Newfoundland we have no competing claims, the calming benefit of hindsight, and we also know that Newfoundland coins actually circulated (unlike the aspar and NKR dram).
Citeer: COINMAN1I would like to add my weight behind the suggestion of New Foundland being separated from Canadian Provinces.
Reason.
If Lundy can have a separate listing and that is only a small island in the Bristol Channel, and the coins were illegally produced, then New Foundland deserves and merits it's own listing.
Coinman1
Even other separatist nations can be listed. Transnistria is mentioned here even legally part of Moldavia. Western Sahara is in legal dispute with Marocco since a few decades. My only regret is about another country in similar situation (as a separatist country): Abkhazia, which have its own coinage in Apsar (only this silver coinage, Abkhazian roubles are pure fantasy). I already made another topic about.
I would not compare those modern controversies to Newfoundland simply because those regions are still contested and often at war, so emotions run high. With Newfoundland we have no competing claims, the calming benefit of hindsight, and we also know that Newfoundland coins actually circulated (unlike the aspar and NKR dram).
Should it be better to compare with micronations, like in the oldest quote?
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
The aspects, we could consider Newfoundland a separate country listing:
1. It was self-governing Colony/Dominion until the referendum in 1949.
2. It has its own flag.
3. It STILL has the National anthem (now provincial anthem, but it is only provincial anthem in Canada) and it is quite beautiful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgnxM-Gl7_8
The only against is, that the coins were similar in dimensions and metal with Canadian ones, but still it should deserve a separate listing.
Very difficult to disagree with this argument and I have lived in Upper Canada all my life.
A couple of fun facts....
1. Growing up as a child, Newfie (Newfoundlanders) jokes where still quite common on the mainland.
2. My grandmother was from the Rock. I inherited her maiden name, Morgan, as my middle name (as has my son). Some years back, my Uncle (his mother) visited her hometown and so the story goes....I am a descendant of Captain Morgan the rum-runner.
P.S. I prefer a nice dark beer over rum, any day!
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure, that just ain't so. Mark Twain
Since I very much agree with the arguments presented, I will put the decision for nefoundland to become a country, to a vote. If a majority of people vote yes, then I will create it myself.
Do we really need to vote? It seems we have a consensus...
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
"Celui qui combat des monstres doit prendre garde à ne pas devenir monstre lui-même. Si tu contemples longtemps un abîme, l’abîme aussi regarde en toi." N.
Ex-référent/modérateur/administrateur à la retraite
after researches in books and on the internet, I think too, that Newfoundland should be listed apart from the Canadian Provinces to become a new country in our list.
Not completely accomplished as we need to translate in French now: Terre-Neuve.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I've a better idea... Deleting the "Canadian provinces" and just keeping Newfoundland - Dollar like all other separate nations
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
"Newfoundland - Dollar" is what I expected to obtain, as most currencies show in the coin editor. So deleting "Canadian provinces" to the actual "Canadian provinces - Newfoundland - Dollar" would be enough.
I'm not stupid, it was purely targetted to the Newfoundland section only, not globally the country...
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
The French country name and the currency were both changed... Perfect!
Next step: new flag, as its new flag is Azores flag now... Same issue for Roman Provinces.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Citeer: "BCNumismatics"All the colonies that are now part of the Dominion of Canada should be listed separately.
Jerome Remick's 'Coins of the British Commonwealth' lists them all as separate countries.
Aidan.
you're right. As an avid empire collector I've tried on numerous occasions to separate certain colonies and countries and group certain ones however it falls on deaf ears. Newfoundland has been a crime for the amount of time it's suffered the neglect of "Canadian provinces"
I wouldn't mind the German states being separated either, but it makes sense to put a bunch of similar minor countries in one listing: the point of this thread was that Newfoundland was different from the other pre-Confederation British colonies in North America, not that the "Canadian provinces" listing should be totally abolished - that's a fight for some other time.
I think the solution for such collective listings would involve another list - clicking on "German states" would take you to a list that looks much like the main country list, but containing nothing but, well, German states. There are a few possibilities here - I'd like to see the states list use shields, rather than rectangular flags. Perhaps this page could even have some kind of integrated identification help (for instance, mousing over a state's shield brings up images of the rulers, monograms, and other identifiers of that state's coinage).
This way, the main country list stays uncluttered, but huge "omnibus" listings are separated properly.
With the help of the team we have,
- add the new flag.
- changed the Currency : "Newfoundland - Dollar (1865-1949)"
- add the new country on the map of "Your collection".
Citeer: "galor"Hello to all,
Newfoundland is now a country.
With the help of the team we have,
- add the new flag.
- changed the Currency : "Newfoundland - Dollar (1865-1949)"
- add the new country on the map of "Your collection".
Have you other requests or questions?
Best regards,
Galor
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I feel that the "dashboard" map should get an update in this way: when you want to click on the territory, where the Newfoundland was it should be like:
(if you have any Newfoundland coins): 1. Newfoundland: X coins; 2. Canada: Y coins (priority of Newfoundland over Canada even if it is now a part of it... so when you click on it you will see all your coins from Dominion of Newfoundland, not Canada)
and of course the "Newfoundland" should be listed only in that territory where it used to be and not over all the Canada.
Not sure if we can do it. If we would be able to, we would have to make the same for other independant or protectorate territories like Lorraine, Brittany, Saar, or some separatist nations like Katanga, Biafra, Transnistria (more difficult this way as too small)...
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Newfoundland is still a different case from all those "separatist" territories...
It was independent since founding on 1610...
Transnistria, Saar and so on are only disputed claims that lasts for few years and usually they are separated from the other country because of political reasons or due to having a minority in some state that would make a majority when separated. Neither of which is the case of Newfoundland.
Citeer: "superman43"Newfoundland is still a different case from all those "separatist" territories...
It was independent since founding on 1610...
Transnistria, Saar and so on are only disputed claims that lasts for few years and usually they are separated from the other country because of political reasons or due to having a minority in some state that would make a majority when separated. Neither of which is the case of Newfoundland.
But even this way Brittany remained as a separate country as an independant Duchy, in feudal times.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Is it really that difficult to have Brittany, Newfoundland and all countries not made by politicians on the dashboard map on its own ? Even if it was only 1 pixel on the map it will be enough, won´t it be ?
(source: