Why no CSA?

The Confederate States of America should be listed as a country in it's own right.

By any reasonable criteria, the claim is far more valid than a lot of those "nations" which seem to exist for the sole purpose of making coins.

It was a sovereign state for four years, had a legitimate government, a State Capital and an army and a navy. It also produced coins intended for circulation, granted not many but surely one legitimate coin is worth a thousand modern fantasies?

In addition to the small number of coins, there was a limited production of restrikes made using the original dies shortly after the war by Confederate sympathizers. These restrikes have a substantial value in their own right.

It's no big deal if it remains under the USA flag but would anyone object if it took the space vacated by Hutt River or The Marshall Islands?

Personally I would like to see a separate section "fantasies/pseudo countries" and have them all listed under there as separate countries Antarctic territories, Hutt River, etc.  Do you need a passport to go there?  can you spend the coins there?  No?  In they go.

CSA certainly has a greater claim for country status.

I'm in favor with integration on CSA. It was not fantasy but a real separatist country, with a military conflict on real ground. Transnistria has its coinage reknown as a separatist nation still existing. Western Sahara too, even not really circulating. Most countries has reknown more PRC than Taiwan, but both can be considered as countries.

The Confederate States of America had NO circulating coins.

Pattern 1/2 Dollars were struck at the New Orleans Mint.

1 Cent currency tokens were in circulation - but they are actually quite rare.

Aidan.

I'd tend to think perhaps a subsection in the U.S. Like pre Federal and Hawaii dollar. If there were more coins then I'd say make it separate but I agree with Phil it should have something.

Citeer: cncote10I'd tend to think perhaps a subsection in the U.S. Like pre Federal and Hawaii dollar. If there were more coins then I'd say make it separate but I agree with Phil it should have something.

Hawaii is listed separately,as it was an independent country - Kingdom of Hawaii

As for the Confederate States of America,it should be listed as a separate country - just like in the Pick catalogue listings for banknotes.

Aidan.

Citeer: neilithicPersonally I would like to see a separate section "fantasies/pseudo countries" and have them all listed under there as separate countries Antarctic territories, Hutt River, etc.  Do you need a passport to go there?

Actually, for the Anctarctic territories, not only you need a passport, but you also need to get a backround check to even be allowed to enter. And the CSA only had one semi-circulation coin, which didn't even circulate all around. So the CSA should be in the "fantasies/pseudo countries" section.

Citeer: BCNumismaticsThe Confederate States of America had NO circulating coins.

Pattern 1/2 Dollars were struck at the New Orleans Mint.

1 Cent currency tokens were in circulation - but they are actually quite rare.

Aidan.

Yeah, the biggest reason I would keep the CSA out is because they never got their official coins circulating. If the CSA was put in the catalog it would become the new "most expensive country" - the cheapest authentic Confederate coins (not restrikes) are priced in my Red Book at $120,000 - and that's just excessive. Even the restrikes will apparently run you more than $2,500. And that's just unfair to completionists

Yeah,  and for the cent which is the cheapest, there are only 12 authentic ones,  so one is rarely, if ever, offered for sale, and prices reach 200000 easily. having the CSA as a country would  not allow anyone to have all countries, unless they have way tol much money.

Citeer: eitan190Actually, for the Anctarctic territories, not only you need a passport, but you also need to get a backround check to even be allowed to enter. And the CSA only had one semi-circulation coin, which didn't even circulate all around. So the CSA should be in the "fantasies/pseudo countries" section.

So you mean there are border patrols sitting on the border of French Antarctic territory demanding passports before you pass in from Australian Antarctic Territory?  And then Australian officials making sure no travelers are trying to sneak in from Norwegian Antarctic territory?  Come on, they are pseudo countries with pseudo currencies.  At least the CSA coin actually circulated.

I really don't think the fantasy countries fight 4 year wars in which over a half million people are killed. Whatever the criteria for a pseudo country may be (the question was being asked when I first joined Numista and still hasn't been satisfactorily answered) I'm pretty sure I addressed it in the original post.

Citeer: neilithic

Citeer: eitan190Actually, for the Anctarctic territories, not only you need a passport, but you also need to get a backround check to even be allowed to enter. And the CSA only had one semi-circulation coin, which didn't even circulate all around. So the CSA should be in the "fantasies/pseudo countries" section.

So you mean there are border patrols sitting on the border of French Antarctic territory demanding passports before you pass in from Australian Antarctic Territory?  And then Australian officials making sure no travelers are trying to sneak in from Norwegian Antarctic territory?  Come on, they are pseudo countries with pseudo currencies.  At least the CSA coin actually circulated.

Actually there is!! Only certain people can enter british and french anctarctic territory, and also, the only circulating CSA coin has a mintage of 12.

You mean the actual buildings.  Antractica is a continent with only a couple of thousand people on it at any one time, giving it a population density of 0.00018 people per square mile.  They have a permanent residence of 0 people, all residents are temporary residents, they don't have their own government, army, airforce, navy, police force, treasury, or a circulating currency

Citeer: neilithicYou mean the actual buildings.  Antractica is a continent with only a couple of thousand people on it at any one time, giving it a population density of 0.00018 people per square mile.  They have a permanent residence of 0 people, all residents are temporary residents, they don't have their own government, army, airforce, navy, police force, treasury, or a circulating currency

well yeah, the compounds. The place itself anyone can enter.

Then by my reckoning that makes them embassies, not countries.

But if in that place there is only embassies, then they are sort of countries...

Whatever the criteria for deciding whether a country is real or not may be, I'm sure this isn't one of them:

"having the CSA as a country would  not allow anyone to have all countries"

Citeer: eitan190But if in that place there is only embassies, then they are sort of countries...

Sort of countries....another name for pseudo countries  

They are territories, same as an embassy in any other country is that country's territory.  Do foreign embassies in other countries issue their own currency?  Nope.  Why should Antarctic territories be any different?  It's a gimmicky money making scheme designed to cash in on the guys that MUST have something from every country.

"Yay, my collection is complete, I have something from every country.  WHAT?! They've introduced 10 new countries?! I must go  out and buy them straight away.

I suppose that the Anctarctic territories can go, in tokens, but CSA should not be a country. As nalaberong said, it is unfair to perfectionists.

It's a site intended to catalog coins, separated by countries, not to pander to perfectionists. How is it unfair to make perfection a challenge? Isn't that the whole point?

If you could simply drive to WalMart and buy a nice plastic folder with a coin from every country in the world for $10 then it wouldn't be much of a challenge, everyone would have them and you might as well start collecting nose hairs or shirt buttons.

When I was a young collector we used to walk 25 miles through the snow to attend the annual coin fair. And that was after a 12 hour shift in the coal mine. You kids today.........

The perfectionist thing was a joke - what's more pressing is that the number of existing Confederate coins is in the low double digits, and all of those are patterns. There are some countries in the catalog with no circulating issues, but the CSA is different - there are no circulating OR non-circulating CSA issues, just trial pieces for a future coinage that was never realized. I can't think of any other similar case already on Numista. But I feel that if no CSA coins were ever officially issued, and if the number of known issues is so tiny, then there is not much justification to make an entire new listing (which would have just two authorized coins in it, $0.01 and $0.50, and then a LOT of unauthorized restrikes and other spurious pieces).

And while we're arguing, here are the actual facts:
http://www.us-coin-values-advisor.com/civil-war-coins.html

Citeer: pnightingaleWhen I was a young collector we used to walk 25 miles through the snow to attend the annual coin fair. And that was after a 12 hour shift in the coal mine. You kids today.........

LUXURY!

Citeer: nalaberongThe perfectionist thing was a joke -

Yes that was how I took it.... at least initially. So no worries on that score OK?

It's not really a pressing matter at all except for a minor point about historical accuracy. It's very true that the extremely rare coins released into circulation are far beyond the reach of any of us but the restrikes are very much sought after as numismatic items although I would be the first to concede they should be considered exonumia. I do actually have one of these myself so they at least are do-able.

It just seems to me that for anyone wanting to find out more information on the CSA coinage it would be more user friendly to have it listed separately instead of having the casual visitor wade through many pages of US coins to find them.

I haven't actually confirmed it by searching but I'm sure there are already catalog entries for countries with even less in the way of coinage, so if the only objection is to be based on limited numbers then it's already settled. If the objections are based on cost or difficulty of acquiring an example then that's a rather slippery slope and one which I'm not sure we should be going down.

All in all I won't lose any sleep over the issue but it has been an interesting discussion and perhaps even informative?

This might be the only conversation I've seen which talked at length about Antarctica and the Confederacy.  There's an interesting sci-fi novel hiding in that idea.

I created a separate currency (Confederate States of America - Dollar) and the United States referee doesn't object. I'm in the middle of adding Haseltine Restrikes to the currency so it won't be just one coin.

Good! Now which mini flag do we use?

Most people assume incorrectly that the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, commonly and incorrectly called the Stars and Bars, was the flag of the CSA. Yeah, the mouth breathers are trying to ban the wrong flag, sigh.



The real Stars and Bars was the design chosen by committee to represent both the military and political element but it was impractical on the battlefield because of it's similarity to the Stars and Stripes.




The Flag of the Confederacy was the Bonnie Blue, it was flown during the Fort Sumter attack which opened the war .



So.... historical accuracy or modern assumptions. Take your pick. The Bonnie Blue would be my choice but most users will be looking for the Battle Flag.

Sorry for getting your hopes up! I created a seperate currency, not a country. In theory I could do this but most members would object and so would that catalog admins, so it wouldn't last!

Just so you know I also think the CSA should be a seperate country but it's not happening any time soon. If I could choose a flag I would go the "real stars and bars" because it is obviously the most historically accurate. Although the Bonnie Blue would certainly look better, especially in "minified" form.

Use the Stars & Bars to indicate the Confederate States of America,as that was the flag adopted by the Congress of the C.S.A..

Aidan.

Whoa, everyone's getting too excited! I repeat: the CSA is not a country in the catalog, just a currency in the United States.

Yeah, I misread it too.

Ah, well. If we ever do drift towards historical accuracy versus expediency or political correctness we will at least have already picked a flag.

I'm still going with the Bonnie Blue while acknowledging that BCnumismatics is also correct and a man of some fine education. The Stars and Bars was the flag of President Davis, the Battle Flag that of the beloved Robert E Lee but for the sharecroppers and brave grey soldiers it was the Bonnie Blue.

We even have a song about it see? If you look in the audience in the second row you can make out a few famous non-actors who were on set watching and pressed into service as extras. Just over Robert Duval's shoulder is Ted Turner and close by on his left is Democrat Senator Robert Byrd who served admirably in the US Senate until his recent death. There are reportedly others but these are the only two I can spot. (Look at the very first audience scene were General John Bell Hood as explaining that any man who can handle a fiddle isn't fit to carry a musket. )

Ignore Wikipedia as a source for anything related to the Confederacy by the way. I know nobody has done so, I'm just giving a bit o' good free Southern hospitality and warning y'all in advance. Look up "Flags of the Confederacy" and check out the hate filled rant passing as "fact" regarding the Battle Flag. The white background represents "White Supremacy"! Seriously, Wikipedia and it's editors are a joke. It's represented purity - hence the alternate name The Stainless Banner! The average Southerner was no more an d no less a "supremacist" than his Northern counterpart.

I hearded that in 1861, the mint of New Orlean continue to strike many half dollars of the common type after the secession, and thus in the name of the CSA. Is that right?

Yes, I think they did.

Let's add the CSA type to the catalog.

It seems it is possible to make the difference between the union seated liberty half dollar and those strike by the CSA in 1861: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1861-O-SILVER-CSA-OBVERSE-SEATED-LIBERTY-HALF-DOLLAR-COIN-PCGS-AU-DETAILS-/221702085940

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/39968?redir=t