A few updates I suggest: Ruanda-Urundi and Abkhazia

Here are a few suggests which are ignored for a long time or in the French forum.

• Ruanda-Urundi to be renamed
  

Ruanda-Urundi was a few months ago split with Ruanda-Burundi. But as it seems logical because of the name change, it appears that the Ruanda-Urundi coins are not only Ruanda-Urundi but more Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi. My 1st request is to rename the country as Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi (French name: Congo belge et Ruanda-Urundi). This can extend to a split for come other coins in other colonies but this should be more treated in other topics later.
Another similar example is the 3 country listings of Saint Helena, Ascension Island and Saint Helena and Ascension.

• Abkhazia to be restored as a country listing
  

in a older topic suggesting some country deletes, I made a bad support of the Abkhazia deletion. A few days later I discovered there is an official currency in Abkhazia (considering this separatist republic as self-governing), alongside the Russian currency for common use, named Apsar. This is not a circulating currency, as coins are struck in silver or gold only, but they have an official exchange rate inside the republic:
1 Abkhazian Apsar = 10 Russian Rubles
Furthermore, the Moscow mint gave his mintmark on the Abkhazian coins, making these coins more legitimate as a real coinage than micronations. If such "countries" exist, Abkhazia has to be restored in the country listing but would contain Apsar coins only.

Belgian Congo was until 1960. The Ruanda-Urundi coins come from 1960-1963.

Citeer: "jelle"​Belgian Congo was until 1960. The Ruanda-Urundi coins come from 1960-1963.

​Invalid argument: the coins were minted before 1960.

Citeer: "chomp-master"​

Citeer: "jelle"​Belgian Congo was until 1960. The Ruanda-Urundi coins come from 1960-1963.

​​Invalid argument: the coins were minted before 1960.

​sorry thought about Ruanda-Burundi

Citeer: "chomp-master"​Here are a few suggests which are ignored for a long time or in the French forum.
​

• Ruanda-Urundi to be renamed
  ​
  

​
​Ruanda-Urundi was a few months ago split with Ruanda-Burundi. But as it seems logical because of the name change, it appears that the Ruanda-Urundi coins are not only Ruanda-Urundi but more Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi. My 1st request is to rename the country as Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi (French name: Congo belge et Ruanda-Urundi). This can extend to a split for come other coins in other colonies but this should be more treated in other topics later.
​Another similar example is the 3 country listings of Saint Helena, Ascension Island and Saint Helena and Ascension.
​

• Abkhazia to be restored as a country listing
  ​
  

​
​in a older topic suggesting some country deletes, I made a bad support of the Abkhazia deletion. A few days later I discovered there is an official currency in Abkhazia (considering this separatist republic as self-governing), alongside the Russian currency for common use, named Apsar. This is not a circulating currency, as coins are struck in silver or gold only, but they have an official exchange rate inside the republic:
​1 Abkhazian Apsar = 10 Russian Rubles
​Furthermore, the Moscow mint gave his mintmark on the Abkhazian coins, making these coins more legitimate as a real coinage than micronations. If such "countries" exist, Abkhazia has to be restored in the country listing but would contain Apsar coins only.

​Until Georgia exists as country, Abkhazia and Samachablo ( South Ossetia) couldn't be listed as country. Its a nonsense.
There is no anymore Belgian Congo, Nor Rwanda -Burundi, and you can do what all will decide like with medieval or ancient states and cities, which never nobody knew what country`s part they were exactly. But Georgia is still exist ( and I hope will be in future as well) in its borders, proved by all UN members in 1991-1992 and, Abkhazia is considered as " Territory, occupied by Russia" , referring to the latest UN and EU declarations. Nothing like Apsars never been in circulation in Abkhazia. They just were minted in Moscow, and sometimes their self-proclamed government under Russian roof presents them to "ambassadors" or "presidents" from South Osetia, Transnistria, or Nagorno-Karabakh. Those Apsars worth no more than this Silver (.925) Trinket, also produced at Moscow Mint.

Lets make a country " ISIS" with their gold Riyals ( or dinars, I dont know and dont care which ones) . It is also self-proclaimed "country" with leader, rules, " government" and own currency. Now ISIS is only at near Asia, and I hope it will be crushed soon, BUT (!) if it will destine to Montigny-lès-Metz, France , your childhood friends, neighbors and relatives will killed and smelled for a month at the streets, and YOu will be forced to leave Your beloved city and region of FRANCE and live somewhere else, as I did in 1993, I think You will have another opinion about these " countries" . again, hope it will never happen in Your life, nor in all of us lives.
Someone making everything to legitimate Abkhazia as country, but it doesn't mean that Numista must do the same. Its just a shame.
Nothing personally to all Russians. I have a lot of beloved relatives and friends there, Russians. I just against its dirty regional politic.
Yours,
David

Regarding Ruanda-Urundi,
I think they are both correct.
As Aluminium coins were issued before Belgian congo became Congo dem. Rep,and there is inscription " Belgian Congo Ruanda -Urundi" its quite right to call this coinage as " Belgian Congo. Ruanda-Urundi"
From another side - coins were in circulation only in Rwanda and Burundi territory. And also, Rwanda-Urundi had quite different political structure and different "pro-Belgian" History than the Main Belgian Congo.

At least League of Nations , I guess, never considered that Ruanda-Urundi might be same territory as Belgian Congo. They just granted Belgium a mandate with promises to improve these two country to become them soon independent. I think the term " Belgian Congo & Ruanda-Urundi" is just a trick of Belgian Kingdom, which didnot have a big wish to say " goodbye" to these two territories.

I know these silver coins were minted in Moscow, there is the mintmark on them. But according to your logic we should delete all separatist nations already named as countries, like Transnistria. The term "nations" should be more legitimate here but this is a translation issue.
ISIS is different in one main point for me: there is a serious doubt about the coinage origin. Do they really have minting facilities? Are they really using modern minting technologies? Are these design really from these fools? Are they simply really minting them? There is absolutely no way to verify such issues.
I know you're Georgian so your point of view is biased by national considerations. Please go away from these and avoid personal attacks.

Citeer: "chomp-master"​I know these silver coins were minted in Moscow, there is the mintmark on them. But according to your logic we should delete all separatist nations already named as countries, like Transnistria. The term "nations" should be more legitimate here but this is a translation issue.
​ISIS is different in one main point for me: there is a serious doubt about the coinage origin. Do they really have minting facilities? Are they really using modern minting technologies? Are these design really from these fools? Are they simply really minting them? There is absolutely no way to verify such issues.
​I know you're Georgian so your point of view is biased by national considerations. Please go away from these and avoid personal attacks.

​1.If You imagine what should happend , and consider this as "personal attack" , - I answer You again - nothing personal.
2. Of course any current illegal " coinage" must moved to the section " tokens" , - yes, including Transnistria and others
3. So, If you will find official info that those coins were minted under ISIS control at ISIS struck machines, - You should fighting to add ISIS as country too.
4. Mankind create UN and other Institutions to avoid such discussions. World changed . And if someone just want to increase the number of his " countries" collection, - its only his right, and not a subject of provocations like " Abkhazia must be moved back to countries" . Do You like apsars - welcome, collect them. But tick them in the " tokens" section. By the way, most of tokens all over world also were minted at official Mints like Moscow or Paris.
6. Abkhazia is a part of Georgia, and its official currency is Georgian Lari.. All citizens of region Abkhazia dont hesitate to get age pensions in Georgian Lari, and never tried to go to the Moscow mint to change them to APSARS at all.

Anyway, the most important thing is: we should consider all separatist nations as potential coin listings, or neither. If you don't want to see Abkhazia as a country listing, ask for the removal of Transnistria, Katanga, Biafra, Western Sahara... or any other separatist territory.

Citeer: "chomp-master"​Anyway, the most important thing is: we should consider all separatist nations as potential coin listings, or neither. If you don't want to see Abkhazia as a country listing, ask for the removal of Transnistria, Katanga, Biafra, Western Sahara... or any other separatist territory.

agree. but I dont gooing to fighting for any other " countries". Im not admin of this site. there are plenty of mistakes in catalog, and 50.000 members.
What I know for 100% - that Abkhazia and Samachablo must be in token section. and I have argumented and will do it any time it will be need.
For other territories Im not so competentive, and I dont know their everyday history. Also, I dont know ( and, actually dont interest ) by UN or other Institutions resolutions around these territories , but I know what is here. Thats why I speak about Georgia, and not about Karabakh, Transnistria and so on. Im not Dalai-Lama to fighting for all and everybody. Any of these questions around existing illegal territories are too difficult and must be discussed too gently, and not so roughly. again, I will always answer on any question around Georgian territories, but willnot be able to stay so strong in discussions around other post-soviet or any other territory.
Abkhazian government ( the Government of Autonomus Republic of Abkhazia) -in-exile is still exists, it contains of all departamentes which it needs ( health, low, finance etc) and is still working for both - exiled 350.000 people and a part of people which needs its support in Abkhazia now. . Its in relations with world autonomous regions community, which includes territories of UK, France, Spain, Portugal, and many and many others.

I think there is nothing more to add as your opinion will never change for Abkhazia. This discussion may remain open to other advices.

Let's switch to Ruanda-Urundi... When you mint coins with a double territory name, like for the French colonial system which would have similar issues (Western Africa - Togo or Central Africa - Cameroon), it can be only justified by a minting cost cut when unifying colonial coinage. And even minted especially more for one territory, it should be legal tender in all concerned territories. Another original example exists in the former British Caribbean territories joint with British Guiana.

I'm just asking for Ruanda-Urundi as this nation has its own country listing which contains common coinage only. In my other examples we would need to split coinages from concerned nations to create a "unified coinage nation", that's why this issue will need to be treated later. Unlike them, Ruanda-Urundi has already been split to change the final naming of both, as I remember its former name Ruanda-(B)Urundi. If my logic of a unified name is kept, then we would speak about the French African and British Carribean colonies later.

well,
If coins " Afrique Occidentale Frabcaise / Togo" should circulate only in Togo, it should be listed under country TOGO . But those coins were in circulation in all French West Africa, and were not minted only for Togo. .
Different story with Ruanda-Urundi. Aluminium coinage with name " Ruanda-Urundi" was in circulation only in Ruanda-Urundi, as well as brass 5 franc. Ruanda-Urundi Franc was equal to Main colony - Belgian Congo Franc. But coins had different designs and circulation area. While the Belgian Congolese Franc was in circulation in R/U till 1960, R/U coins weren`t in circulation in Belgian Congo. It was because Belgian Congo had more stronger emission . And, I think that those Aluminium and brass coinage was just a part of promised duties to the League of Nations ( UN already at that period) .
So, we can say, that coins were minted by the Bank of Belgian Congo FOR Ruanda-Urundi . Nobody in Belgium couldnot even imagine that in 1960 the biggest colony should turn to the Congo Democratic Republic. Thats why there were printed millions of banknotes, which later were overprinted by states Rwanda and Kingdom of Burundi as their currency.
So, finally, I disagree with name " Belgian Congo/ Ruanda-Urundi" , as country or confederation like this never existed. There was Belgian Congo, and was Ruanda-urundi, which were under Belgian mandate, granted by League of Nation. In this case all coins, including Belgian Congolese Franc, and Ruanda-urundi coinage, must be listed under same name, becasue Belgian Congolese Franc was in circulation on the territory of R/U since 20th years of 20th century after giving this territory to Belgium.

Moving back to Your first post: "Ruanda-Urundi coins are not only Ruanda-Urundi but more Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi." - I think it should be more correct for Belgian Congo coinage, but not for Ruanda-urundi. Because in 1927 private Bank of Belgian Congo got rights to increase its area and officially covered territory of Ruanda-Urundi. But in 1951 " Central Bank of Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi" created, and all rights to emission moved from Private Bank to the Central Bank. In the same year emission of new banknotes was started. And in the 1953 first coin, brass 5 francs with inscription " Banque Centrale" on the one side and " Belgish Congo Belge / Ruanda Urundi" on the other side issued into the circulation. So, inscription " central Bank of BC & R/U" means not country " Belgian Congo and R-U" , but Central Bank for these two countries.

My opinion based on official informations from official sources.

Yours,
David

So you think Ruanda-Urundi was completely apart in currency unlike the other colonies for which a debate can occur...

almost yes.
But discussion must be welcomed for any each colony separately.
I think its not correct to compare X-colony coinage of A- Mother-country with Y-colony coinage of B-country. As all they have their own specifications.

And such discussions better to do with those people who are close with colonial banknotes as well. Sometimes banknotes may answer on many questions.
Easy to speak about coins were in circulation. Regarding Sain Helena, Ascencion and S-H/ Ascention, - actually I prefer to stay apart, and will wait what all other will decide. Because I have a big doubt that any of those coins were ever been in circulation at any of them after two types of halfpenny so-called tokens :). For me that " tokens" were money, and those " coins" which are issued by Royal Mint are nothing but round souvenir pieces. Yes, they are legal tender, but most of used pound coins people find in their pocket change in England. I think they are in common coin thread in UK .Joking of course, but to tell a true - its a true :)

We're leaving the original topic subject but there is a nice example... Take French West Africa and Togo. 1st coins were minted apart, with their proper name but exactly the same design. But the year France started minting for FWA, they abandoned the Togo version as we could see with the abandoned trials in 1956. The following year appeared the common coin with these high denominations.

dear Chop-Master,
Unfortunately Im not ready to take a part in this discussion. Im not close to history of all those " Institute de emissions" , " banque centrale"-s, and , as parralell - turns in France history and history of its former and contemporary colonies.
I think everything should stand on its places, if dig thats period history of exact areas. But... I dont why everything will turn from top to bottom if Ruanda-Urundi will be with name " Ruanda-Urundi" , and the name " BC/ RU" will put everything on their right places.

If nobody will answer earlier, I will try to find a time to dig in this area history deeper to find answers on any question around numismatic turns french colonial coinage.
thanks
david

To continue the topic, since Ruanda-Urundi and Belgian Congo issued the same coinage under a different name, and catalogs list the coinage as "Belgian Congo Ruanda-Urundi", they should be merged together, no need to separate coinage issued for the same region.

Abkhazia,like South Ossetia,is legally a province of Georgia - but under the illegal occupation by Russia.

Transnistria is legally part of Moldova - again,illegally occupied by Russia.

Crimea is legally part of Ukraine - & illegally taken over by Russia.

The Apsar is a non-circulating unrecognised medal-coin unit.

Aidan.

Citeer: "BCNumismatics"​Abkhazia,like South Ossetia,is legally a province of Georgia - but under the illegal occupation by Russia.
​
​Transnistria is legally part of Moldova - again,illegally occupied by Russia.
​
​Crimea is legally part of Ukraine - & illegally taken over by Russia.
​
​The Apsar is a non-circulating unrecognised medal-coin unit.
​
​Aidan.

​But Crimea doesn't count now... It's ancient coinage we have here.

Transnistria is here, but coins really circulate there.

We have countries with uncirculating units like Sanmarinese Scudi or Andorran Diners.

Western Sahara is maybe the closest equivalent as Sahrawi Peseta uncirculating and still no internationally-recognized authority there.

And what would I say about Lundy, Seborga, Sealand... ???

If all these situations are tolerated, why not a mix of them?

I was getting this subject falling to the limbo forum, and finally against all odds an old topic, already in those limbo (dated from May), about Abkhazia I made in the French forum got treated and finally agreed

The coins are legal tender, I agree with the decision

It was a big mistake actually, from NUMISTA Team.

What's a Psark?!

I think it's the plural name in Abkhazian language. Why? Just compare :

• English: http://www.nb-ra.org/en/Coins.htm
  
• Russian: http://www.nb-ra.org/ru/Coins.htm
  
• Abkhazian: http://www.nb-ra.org/ab/Coins.htm