Some coins are described under the rule of Karl XIII
and others from exactly the same period is described under the rule of totally another King Carl XIII
OK, to make it clear:
Person 1: Karl XIII
Person 2: Carl XIII
It looks very strange and not polite from the point of view of the Kingdom of Sweden.
Thank you for your clarification. Still it does not look as consistent position.
We have JUST ONE catalog of numista.
That is why it is required that the names are the same EVERYWHERE inside the catalog. Otherwise it is two, three etc. different catalogs collected occasionally under one roof. It is like to read SCWC and find that on one page one term is in use and at the other place - another term for the same item under consideration.
Yes, it is a bit of work to do: the referee for Sweden should check every article and make a list for changes to the moderator. So what? Are we so lazy?
Yes, we are lazy, once it was revealed that there are fakes at the catalog, and till now the Numista team makes nothing with it. Here is an example https://en.numista.com/forum/topic44195.html In that case the whole emission of the territory was substituted by fakes! It was revealed 30 days ago and nigher the referee was dismissed for such rude cheat of the Numista community, nor the corrections were conducted by the Numista team IMMEDIATELY!
We are lazy, and that is why permit the side with the leader of the territory be the Rev instead of Obv. (such as russian coins almost in all cases with an exclusion)
And here we permit two different people rule simultaneously!!!
It is totally inappropriate position. Hope that it does not reflect the official view of Numista team and referees.
Of course the spelling must be consistent. Since Karl have two spellings in Swedish, and in English also named Charles, this must find a standard. To mix the spellings is not a good idea, and to embrace the English spelling is not a good idea either, since it's a Swedish king, not English.
So, here's the different Karl/Carl who's been king: Karl XIII, who also was king of Norway and sometimes called Karl II, reigned 1809-1818 Karl XIV Johan, who also was king of Norway and nowadays known as Karl III Johan, reigned 1818-1844 Karl XV, who also was king of Norway and sometimes called Karl IV, reigned 1859-1872 Carl XVI Gustaf, reigned 1973-present
Agreed that no other spellings should be accepted.
Usually I can correct these items in an article and send to referee.
But in this case it is not me, who decides which name to omit. It is the task of catalog creators. They have their vision and as the result names spellings in English and in French parts of the catalog, and I respect this vision and recommend just to leave one person rules Sweden in a time.
I decided to dig some to find out the rules, and I think it goes like this:
For old monarchs the names were a lot different back then and have been "normalized" in modern times to Karl, Gustav, etc
For more recent monarchs, from Oscar I and onwards, the names should be spelled as they spelled themselves (i.e. both Oscar spelled with c so we should also)
However, the swedish royal family themselves disagrees (as can be seen on the webpage linked above), and says any former monarch that the current monarch has met is allowed to keep the spelling they chose, older monarchs should be normalized. Hence they spell Oskar but since Carl XVI Gustaf has met Gustaf V and Gustaf VI Adolf they are allowed to keep their non-normalized names. It's unclear if they should be renamed or not when the current king dies....
So in conclusion, it's a mess, but at least it should be Karl XIII
The thing with Swedish names is that the same name can be spelled in different ways. Many names with a K can also be spelled with a C, and names with ending V can also be spelled with an F.
This goes on. Names with I can also be Ie (Stig/Stieg), E can be É (Linnea/Linnéa). T can also be Th, as Tor/Thor and Teresa/Theresa. This can sometimes be a little troublesome
For instance, my name is Henrik, but it can also be spelled Henric, Henrick and Hendrik, and you'd better spell it right, haha!
It is the task for the Numista team to choose who ruled Sweden at English and French part of the catalog.
It is very hard to believe that when in a text one wrote about another person as Hendrik and a few seconds later as Henric, the one means the same person in mind.
Not much to do at the catalog, but still it is fun work.
What do you mean by "choose who ruled"? The king had a name, obviously, so why wouldn't it be spelled the way he spelled it? Why would Carl XVI Gustaf be spelled Karl XVI Gustav? Always use the native spelling!
If the native spelling uses a different alphabet, like Александр, then use the most common transliteration, in this case Alexander. If there are no common ones, just transliterate it the native name with the same spelling: Aleksandr.
Despite that this is wrong position, the concussion is totally correct that the decision is taken VOLUNTARY by the numista team according to their policy and personal tastes.
the thesis
always use the native spelling!
is absolutely out of reality. It is people who use the terms. There is a slight correlation between different cultures but one can not demand that the whole population of another country should use this word instead of that, which they already use. You practically came to the request, that everyone in the world should say Suomi, instead of Finland, even in Sweden!!! And it is very non polite demand.
Unfortunately the catalog under consideration is not in Swedish, it is in French and there is a small restriction of it in English. Being in the Numista team, I'll learn the correct and consistent spellings that are used in French and English scientific literature nowadays and sorry, we obliged to forget about any native ideas and must respect the names, that are in use by French and English speaking people as long as we write words in their languages. The languages are French and English, and it is our responsibility to make the catalog understandable to these people.
Anyway this remark means nothing as well in comparison of the arbitrary choice making by the Numista team. At least now we still have two rulers of Sweden simultaneously and this position is totally inappropriate and very unrespectful to the population of Sweden particularly and educated part of humanity in general.
I think there's a big difference between names of countries and names of people, sure Finland is called Soumi just as a lot of countries have different names in different countries, but normally you'd reference a person with their real name... Using a foreign translation of a name is in my opinion quite ridiculous, even for a king...
The Carl/Karl confusion is not necessarily about native vs foreign spelling though, Carl and Gustaf was as far as I understand the "common" spelling in Sweden as well a long time ago, or further back Carol, Carolus or even weirder like Giostaff and so on. For more recent monarchs it's quite easy to figure out how they spelled their name (or how it's spelled on the coins) and I don't see any reason why their names shouldn't be presented like that here. For older monarchs it's more diffucult because A ) They weren't so picky with their spelling and did it as they liked, B ) They often used some latin version and C ) In some cases the names would be completely unrecognizable for most people. The general recommendation in Sweden is to use the modern Swedish normalization for the names, and I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be applied abroad as well.
That said, I submitted a series of modification requests yesterday for the kings of the last 150 years or so and settled on the following names
Oscar I
Carl XV (not sure if this should be Karl or not but it says Carl on the coins so I didn't change it, I removed the various extra names someone had added after XV though )
Oscar II
Gustaf V
Gustaf VI Adolf
Carl XVI Gustaf
I also suggest the following changes should be made
Zygmunt III Vasa -> Sigismund (Zygmunt III was the polish name/title, he was first and only Sigismund of Sweden)
Karl "Lord Protector" -> Karl IX (I assume it says "Lord Protector" because he wasn't king but does that make any difference?)
Kristina I -> Kristina
Adolf Fredrick -> Adolf Fredrik
Carl XIII -> Karl XIII
Carl XIV Johan (or in some cases just Carl XIV) -> Karl XIV Johan
I'm not sure about the rules about numerals when there's only been one with the name but Sigismund, Kristina, Ulrika Eleonora and Adolf Fredrik seems to be commonly known without numerals while Fredrik I for some reason has one. To me it feels really weird to refer to Fredrik I as Fredrik and equally weird to refer to Kristina as Kristina I...
For me, there is nothing to do and nothing to discuss at all.
The authorized Numista team member may do these simple steps:
Take a list of rulers of Sweden. 2 minutes
Decide how it should be looked at the catalog according to his taste. 5 minutes
Check the spelling at the catalog and correct them in the form of copy and paste. Just monkey job - 40 minutes.
Coffee break. 15 minutes.
Repeat these steps for English restriction part of the catalog - the same 30 minutes (less time, for the skills were obtained).
But that's what I've been trying to say, the simple 2 minute task of getting a list of rulers is not that simple.
The swedes can't agree on the names so which one do we choose? And even when the swedes did reach a consensus (for example Karl XIII and Karl XIV Johan) how do we deal with the fact that there are coins that have the names as Carl (and no coins that says Karl since that's not how they spelled back then)? If we change it to Karl there will most likely be a torrent of change requests to change it to what it says on the coins...
So, I listed a bunch of suggestion above to help sort out what I feel would be right for the 2 minute task.
And then we can move on to Norway and deal with the same kings there, which spelling to choose? Should they use norwegian numerals or the swedish numerals (as stated on the coins)? But I guess that's a topic for another discussion...
Citeer: "cyprusalexander"There is a slight correlation between different cultures but one can not demand that the whole population of another country should use this word instead of that, which they already use. You practically came to the request, that everyone in the world should say Suomi, instead of Finland, even in Sweden!!! And it is very non polite demand.
Well, this has nothing to do to "change words". Finland is also called "Finland" in Finland, since Swedish is a native tounge there, so that's a really bad example, but I get what you mean.
I am not talking about changing languages here, I am simply talkng about to keep the spelling the person himself wanted people to use. If you find that idiotic, then that's up to you, siprassaleksandr.
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