1908 Half Penny with counter marks

Good day
A couple of weeks back I bought this coin. It is stamped 1917 followed by 712234 and 105 on the one side. Other side are stamped 712970. Any idea what it could have been used for?
Jannie

I don't think it's possible to know. I tried searching those numbers in Google Images but nothing useful came up.

We just discussed number countermarks in this other post.

Again, they could mean pretty much anything.

And they probably don't add much value if any, I'm sorry to say.

Without the countermarks it would be a low value coin anyway. The prices on eBay for such countermarks vary enormously and, I would say, hilariously. Some overpriced items have been listed for months, and even years in some cases. If you wanted to sell this one and someone offered you US $10, it would be a very good deal for you.

Here's what you get on eBay (via picclick) for the search term "counterstamp".

Actually it might be related to a WWI Private's number; '1917' could be a year. But again I have no idea.

Citeer: "CassTaylor"​Actually it might be related to a WWI Private's number; '1917' could be a year. But again I have no idea.

​Yes, very good point. It may well be possible to go through the archives and find out who it is. That would definitely increase the value of the coin.

Thanks for the help
I found this when I typed in the number:

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/306163

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/image.aspx?Image=658626a&URLjpg=http%3a%2f%2fdata2.archives.ca%2fcef%2fgpc017%2f658626a.gif&;

I think this belonged to Robert Walter Warren. His Regimental Number:712234 and Battalion number, 105 are both on the coin.

Jannie

More info
The number on back also belonged to WELLINGTON POPE WARREN

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=299146
http://canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?ID=13527

This was his older brother.

Jannie

Wow, I was right! I guess you have your answer then.

It can't be a coincidence that someone punched the numbers of two brothers serving in the same war onto a coin, right?

Citeer: "CassTaylor"​Wow, I was right! I guess you have your answer then.
​
​It can't be a coincidence that someone punched the numbers of two brothers serving in the same war onto a coin, right?

​So the older brother died the 8th and the younger one the 24th of August 1918. Now I wonder what the use would have been for this?

Jannie

More information:

The Battle of Amiens started 8th of August 1918, the same day Wellington Warren Died. It is possible that he died in this battle on the 8th and was buried at TORONTO CEMETERY, DEMUIN not to far from Amiens?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amiens_(1918)

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/25703/TORONTO%20CEMETERY,%20DEMUIN

Jannie

Perhaps one or both of them had it made as a souvenir before their deaths? If 1917 is a year as I supposed, that could explain it.

Citeer: "Camerinvs"​

Citeer: "CassTaylor"​Actually it might be related to a WWI Private's number; '1917' could be a year. But again I have no idea.

​​Yes, very good point. It may well be possible to go through the archives and find out who it is. That would definitely increase the value of the coin.

​Good evening.
With all the information we have gained about the coin, how much will it be worth? Are there similar examples to compare it to?Jannie Wonder how it ended up here on the tip of Africa.

Jannie

Bad news I'm afraid, even with all that it's still probably not going to be worth anything more than a normal 1908 halfpenny in that grade. To a collector of WWI memorabilia, or maybe the brothers' descendants/relatives, it might be worth paying a bit more for but for virtually everyone else it's just worth what they'll pay you for it.

Citeer: "CassTaylor"​Bad news I'm afraid, even with all that it's still probably not going to be worth anything more than a normal 1908 halfpenny in that grade. To a collector of WWI memorabilia, or maybe the brothers' descendants/relatives, it might be worth paying a bit more for but for virtually everyone else it's just worth what they'll pay you for it.

​Not that I would want to sell it anyway. I really like the story behind this damaged coin☺Will put it with my fob medal collection.
Thanks for the help
Jannie

I agree... I collect WWI items... and it really depends on what someone is willing to pay for it (Its often completely out of the realm of coin collecting).

I have never really seen an identification and regimental/ battalion number on a coin before :)

It's SUPER COOL!

Awesome find!
ShadowyEngima

Edit: 1917 could be the year the brothers were drafted/ volunteered?

Citeer: "JanGroen"​More information:
​
​The Battle of Amiens started 8th of August 1918, the same day Wellington Warren Died. It is possible that he died in this battle on the 8th and was buried at TORONTO CEMETERY, DEMUIN not to far from Amiens?
​
​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amiens_(1918)
​
​https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/25703/TORONTO%20CEMETERY,%20DEMUIN
​
​Jannie

​He was in the 13th Battalion of Canada and did die in the first day of The Battle of Amiens. Lots of information about this Battalion on the web.
Jannie

The historical background does raise the value. To grade countermarked coins, the condition of the countermark is more important than that of the host coin.

As for the actual value, there is no established catalogue value for such items as there is for regular coins. If I wanted to sell such a coin at a fixed price, say on eBay, I would use good keywords in the description line and add a quick history of the two brothers in the space provided for that on eBay. I think it would be pointless to sell it for less than US $30. Better keep it rather than let it go for $15 or $20. Rather than sell it for peanuts, it would be better to get in touch with the Canadian War Museum and see if they would accept it as a donation.

What you could definitely do is write a short article for a numismatic publication! You have pretty much all the research you need, though you could add a word about the provenience: Was the dealer himself Canadian, French, British, or South African? This is the first step back in establishing the pedigree. And with a little luck the dealer might be able to tell you where the previous collector lived (without giving you his name, to respect privacy). It's unlikely you would be able to go further back, but not impossible.

I recently published a countermarked coin in the Canadian Journal of Numismatics. The first step was quite similar to yours: I did much of my research online and posted it on Numista (June 17-21, 2017) as I was finding new facts. What a coincidence -- it was about a Warren in my case as well!

In your case, it would be a nice little contribution to the field of WW1 numismatics/exonumia, and it would educate coin collectors to the possibility that the meaning of numbers can sometimes be retrieved. Let me know what you think (here or by DM). I am a member of the Canadian Numismatic Association and could ask them whether they accept articles by non-members. Or else you could publish in a journal of your choice. I think a half page of text would do it, plus good photos of the coin. I'm not sure whether there is any copyright issue with the documents. That would be easy to check.

So, kudos to Sophie for thinking of a military link to those numbers, and to you for the fascinating results of your research!

Citeer: "Camerinvs"​
​
​So, kudos to Sophie for thinking of a military link to those numbers, and to you for the fascinating results of your research!

​

Good day
Thanks for all the advice. I will work on a short article about this interesting coin.
It was found in a coil scratch patch in a flea market in Cape Town. So won't be finding information about where the dealer found it.
It was a really cheap coin, R10 ( not even a dollar).
Jannie

Excellent. If you're going to publish it in a Suid African journal, please let me know and I will cite you in the Canadian Numismatic Journal. I'm sure many Canadian collectors would be fascinated by the story. What's more it may come to the attention of Warren relatives.

Citeer: "Camerinvs"​Excellent. If you're going to publish it in a Suid African journal, please let me know and I will cite you in the Canadian Numismatic Journal. I'm sure many Canadian collectors would be fascinated by the story. What's more it may come to the attention of Warren relatives.

​I don't belong to any coin club at the moment. Not sure where to publish an article about it. Will try dig out some more history about these Warren brothers. Any help and advice will be welcome.
Thanks
Jannie

Citeer: "JanGroen"​I​I don't belong to any coin club at the moment. Not sure where to publish an article about it. Will try dig out some more history about these Warren brothers. Any help and advice will be welcome.

I don't think you need to do more research. What matters from a numismatic point of view is that you've identified the brothers from countermarked numerals. If any amateur military historian wants to know more about the brothers, that would be up to him/her to do the job. In publishing anything, the best advice is to stay focused on your topic.
​
As for where you could publish it, I don't think you need to be a club or association member to find a venue. As I said, I could contact the editor of the CNJ. That would be the ideal place given the Canadian connection. I am myself writing up a number of short (and longer) pieces on countermarked coins. Some are supplements to current catalogues and your coin would be a great addition.

You should add a word about the issue of authenticity. Anyone can punch letters on a coin, but it is unlikely that someone would do research in military archives just to create a forgery of limited value. In addition, such archives used to be difficult to access (i.e., before the digital age). So, it's almost certain that your coin goes back to the two brothers punching those numbers or having someone do it for them. It could also be a memorial punched by a friend soon after the second brother died, but it's clear that the coin goes back to war times.