There are a lot of sales going on in the swaps forum, I know that the forum is supposed to be for swaps and that sales are only supposed to be for when a swap is not possible. But the forum seems to be evolving and there is a want for sales to be allowed on the site.
I proposed that we allow sales but make sure they are regulated.
The way I proposed this would work is for sales to be put in a completely separate forum to the swaps. Let the swaps and trades section be solely for that and have a separate section dedicated to those who want to buy and sell.
Also to help protect people from getting ripped off, members who want to be able to sell would need to be address verified. They pay a nominal fee of a few dollars and provide a physical address. The fee is used to send them a verification code to their physical address, then when they PM that code back to the organizer they can have an icon added to their profile that states they are allowed to sell.
Citeer: "neilithicman"There are a lot of sales going on in the swaps forum, I know that the forum is supposed to be for swaps and that sales are only supposed to be for when a swap is not possible. But the forum seems to be evolving and there is a want for sales to be allowed on the site.
I proposed that we allow sales but make sure they are regulated.
The way I proposed this would work is for sales to be put in a completely separate forum to the swaps. Let the swaps and trades section be solely for that and have a separate section dedicated to those who want to buy and sell.
Also to help protect people from getting ripped off, members who want to be able to sell would need to be address verified. They pay a nominal fee of a few dollars and provide a physical address. The fee is used to send them a verification code to their physical address, then when they PM that code back to the organizer they can have an icon added to their profile that states they are allowed to sell.
I'm in favor of any steps to increase the integrity of the forum, especially that part which often involves cash payments. I like the idea of paying a few dollars for what would be a "known seller" icon but only if it is in addition to the current requirements which have served us well enough until just recently.
I would also suggest three more changes to those already put forward here and elsewhere -
1. Restrict access to that forum to those who have completed 100 legitimate trades. Not 25c giveaways and certainly not bogus feedback from duplicate accounts. Requiring only a paltry five trades is an open invitation to those looking to game the system.
2. Allow sales on an "at our discretion" basis. If there's anything even remotely sketchy the moderators can remove the post without having to cite a specific rule. The idea that a known crook can create a new account and make five inexpensive trades (including at least one with himself) then start offering high dollar coin lots for sale is just farcical. Fortunately it was quickly shut down but as we're both well aware, in the past the moderators have just shrugged it off citing "rules".
3. Clamp down vigorously on malicious thread crapping. If you're not buying the coin, shut up and mind your business. It's happened to me in the past, it's not very pleasant. Not because there was any merit to it beyond spiteful keyboard warfare - it was the complete lack of action by the moderators. Well that's not entirely true - they deleted the entire topic with apologies and a suggestion that I should start a new one. No thanks. It should carry a minimum 30 day ban. If the person responsible is a team member or referee they should be stripped of that position immediately.
It's sad that standards have declined to the point where action such as this is even necessary. There's been a recent history of making all kinds of excuses for the crooks and even targeting those who have tried to stop them. It's long overdue to impose some class and basic good manners. A good start would be requiring all referees to adhere to decent behavioral standards and represent the site in a positive manner. If they are unable, then replace them. Is it really a coincidence that the recent problems with the Swaps and Trades forum have followed closely on the heels of a sharp decline elsewhere?
You can't expect a well ordered community when the Team Numista kiddies are the ones running wild.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
The Swaps and Trades forum should be a place where established members can buy, sell or swap coins which for one reason or another don't fit in the regular swap engine. I mean how could you swap a Maundy set or for that matter a high value single coin? Oh, sure you could swap it for $300 worth of pocket change but how likely are you to be able to match it to someone who both needs it and and has something of interest in return?
What it should not be is a free alternative to ebay. There's far too many people who's interest in a mutually supportive way to help each other grow our collections vanishes as soon as they get enough trades to begin the power selling. When I log into Numista I want to be dealing peer to peer with my fellow collectors, not someone selling coins professionally who's found a way to avoid eBay fees.
This should be kept front and centre when making any decisions.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
I agree that it should be on top of the current restrictions, I also agree that 5 swaps should be too few to qualify, but in my mind 100 is too many. I wasn't a big swapper back when I was collecting and after 5+ years of membership I had amassed only 40 or so trades. Perhaps something like 20-25 successful swaps could be the limit. But the details can be nutted out later by whoever gets selected to organise the section (I think the organizer/moderator of the sales section should be a specialised position and the person should not have any other responsibilities that split their attention from overseeing the sales section.
Perhaps we could even have a small listing fee to add a post into the forum, like 20c or something and have the section provide some funds for the site management.
I agree in principle but the devil is in the details. I also agree that 5 may be too few bit feel 100 is a bit extreme. I am aggressively seeking out swaps and they are not easily accomplished. I purposefully seek out long time members to swap with and often times get no response at all. Dead silence, nothing. I would like an opportunity to purchase coins from trusted, registered members on a different page if I am not able to find what i want through swapping. I have already met a few people here that I wouldnt think twice about purchasing coins from. Then there is the notion of due diligence and common sense. Rules and regulations can only go so far.
If they're too cheap to pay eBay their rightful dues you can be sure they'll avoid paying the 20c by offering it as sale or swap but turn down the swap offers. Or they will offer to trade for dollar bills "wink wing, nudge nudge, say no more" as one enterprising feller did recently.
For my part I don't really mind a bit of inconvenience, whatever it takes I'm happy to do it. In return though I do expect some firmer moderation of those who see the Swaps and Trades forum as a great place to start drama. Nobody is going to pay money, fill out forms etc. if at the end of it all their posts are disrupted by the usual suspects.
I'm much happier swapping than selling and when I do usually it's to people I know very well already. To be honest, it's very rare that I use that forum. Friends and fellow collectors know where to find me, it's pretty useful though when I do my annual clear out and sell off coins in bulk.
Perhaps the requirement for 100 5 star trades could be waived at the mod's discretion under exceptional circumstances. What was it, 5,000+ forum posts you had? I reckon anyone with that kind of record isn't here for a quick killing eh?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Citeer: "pnightingale"Perhaps the requirement for 100 5 star trades could be waived at the mod's discretion under exceptional circumstances. What was it, 5,000+ forum posts you had? I reckon anyone with that kind of record isn't here for a quick killing eh?
I think it was closer to 8,000
Although a few of those was just counting posts to piss off a member who had a go at me for celebrating hitting a milestone number of forum posts.
Citeer: "pnightingale"Torontokuba? I really miss his cheerful insolence even though I was mostly on the receiving end.
That was the one. I was trying to remember who it was. I had hit 1000 posts or something and put up a post to mark it and he started pretentiously saying that we shouldn't celebrate the number of posts we'd put up so every time he complained I put up quite a few that just said
That guy could insult you and you wouldn't realise it until the next day. He once told me I looked like the Nickelback front man, I had to google and thought "Damn, he's got a point though.". Crazy **** even used an edited version of my profile picture with the Nickleback guy superimposed as his own for a while.
Good old days when nobody got offended, remember them? Well I guess we should quit reminiscing and get things back on topic.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
This is a FANTASTIC idea I love swapping but have recently been selling a lot more since I'm in the midst of downsizing. I have bought tons and tons of coins from members here in the past when I didn't have what they needed. I love the way we can establish relationships on here and it really helps when your looking to buy or sale something specific. You will then have members that you know are looking for that item or will usually have what your looking for in turn. I agree 100% there needs to be strict guidelines to ensure we protect the users of the site. I don't really know what is to be accomplished by mailing money though because anyone with bad intentions could do that easily then cash out on his sales. I think Phil and Neil are both on track for guidelines but think it should be geared more torwards established users. Maybe not 100 feedback but definitely more than a measly 5 heck there have been times when I was swappg hardcore and I would have 13-14 swaps going on. I like the idea of members also needing a minimum number of post because Communication is key and shows who are actually apart of the community. This website is like a family and we don't need just anyone selling on here to avoid feebay. This should be a privilege reserved for members of "OUR" community. My biggest fear though is that we create this and it ends up getting abused by grifters, so if we do this we need to have guidlines in place first. I also would like to add that it's getting increasingly disgusting with how many people are just on here to create drama so I think that the post on that forum should be restricted to offers not Joe Shmoe and his ridiculous comments.
Sellers definitely need to be established members, not fly-by-night sock puppet accounts.
I think we need a minimum account age AND a minimum number of forum comments AND a minimum number of swaps, as to prove they're serious, sellers need to show that they're not going to up and leave, that they contribute to discussions, and that they are trustworthy in completing swaps.
I would proposed a minimum of 1 year membership, 500 forum posts (meaningful posts, not just posts counting post numbers like some immature members ) and 25 successful swaps without any negative feedback. Then they would need to be address verified. It may sound tough, but I think it's worth it to weed out the scam artists as 1 year, 500 posts and 25 swaps is a lot of effort to put in to get a few dollars out of people. You would also need to weed out any sales posts from non compliant people in the swaps forum.
It will take a bit of effort but I think it will be worth it in the end to clean up the swaps forum and have a small stable of sellers that people know they can trust.
Its a good idea in principle, and whatever the rules may be I'll be happy to comply.
However, I think getting swap numbers up could be a problem -
- I've instigated about 14 swap requests and at least half of those didn't have the decency to reply - and they are mostly swappers with high feedback numbers. I don't get that - why not just decline if not interested? Why have a swap list in the first place?
- There have been probably the same amount of swap requests to me and have always replied within 24 hours. And many swappers always want your higher priced coins, but have nothing of value to swap.
- Getting forum posts up to a sizable number may also be a problem because there are not enough topics to get involved in. We best hope Numista never instigate a 'like' button otherwise the little communication now will cease.
Citeer: "Bas S Warwick"I think getting swap numbers up could be a problem -
Getting forum posts up to a sizable number may also be a problem because there are not enough topics to get involved in.
If you're here for a year then 500 posts shouldn't be too much trouble, it's an average of 1.5 posts per day. it's also only one swap every fortnight That's not hard to do if you get a bulk lot, split it into countries and post them on the swap forum you'll get takers. and can get 10+ swaps from one bulk lot.
The restrictions are basically to weed out the people who are only coming on the site to rip people off. Having to put in the effort to prove you're a contributing member of the site would weed out the majority of the scammers we've had on here recently.
Citeer: "pnightingale"
1. Restrict access to that forum to those who have completed 100 legitimate trades. Not 25c giveaways and certainly not bogus feedback from duplicate accounts. Requiring only a paltry five trades is an open invitation to those looking to game the system.
While I agree with your other points I have to disagree with this one. I bought and sold on the forum in the past but this would restrict me from ever selling again since I doubt I'll ever reach 100 swaps unless I start swapping pocket change which I have no desire to do.
While the "verified address" idea is good and I would use it if added I just don't see why it's needed. I'm a member for just a little over 2 year. I know it's not a very long time but I don't remember seeing anyone ever cheated out of coins they bought. The scamming seems to come from swaps not sales.
Citeer: "neilithicman"
If you're here for a year then 500 posts shouldn't be too much trouble, it's an average of 1.5 posts per day. it's also only one swap every fortnight That's not hard to do if you get a bulk lot, split it into countries and post them on the swap forum you'll get takers. and can get 10+ swaps from one bulk lot.
The forum post requirements would only lead to spamming while buying and swapping bulk lots is great for anyone interested in 20th century common circulated coins, for those of us that collect something a little more specific and harder to find it's pointless. I have no desire to buy a 10 euro per kilo coin lot just to spend another 50 euro on shipping it around to get another 10 euro per kilo coin lot.
I understand you're trying to make scams harder but I really don't think this is the way to do it and in my opinion it would only end up alienating legitimate members while scammers would still do their thing through swaps, not sales.
I collect and deal in ancient Roman coin. In case you're looking for affordable ancient coins or need any help with the coins you already have send me a message.
Citeer: "pnightingale"
1. Restrict access to that forum to those who have completed 100 legitimate trades. Not 25c giveaways and certainly not bogus feedback from duplicate accounts. Requiring only a paltry five trades is an open invitation to those looking to game the system.
While I agree with your other points I have to disagree with this one. I bought and sold on the forum in the past but this would restrict me from ever selling again since I doubt I'll ever reach 100 swaps unless I start swapping pocket change which I have no desire to do.
While the "verified address" idea is good and I would use it if added I just don't see why it's needed. I'm a member for just a little over 2 year. I know it's not a very long time but I don't remember seeing anyone ever cheated out of coins they bought. The scamming seems to come from swaps not sales.
I would probably be in the same position as cro321 in that I am not interested in swapping pocket change, and given that I'm only interested in limited countries and mostly pre 1800, I'll never get there with swaps.
Fair points guys. I seem to recall that the MPCC tried to insist on a minimum number of forum posts one year but it didn't work out too well. On the subject of the MPCC, wouldn't it be possible to rack up several hundred post counts by just voting in every round? I'm sure Druzynets would be grateful for the boost!
That's a really good point about most of the frauds using swaps instead of sales. I'd never thought of it like that but you're quite correct. It's my guess that it's more due to PayPal's buyer protection than to Numista requiring five swaps. I reckon the point of the current discussions is to make sure it stays that way.
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you gentlemen. I collect within a narrow window of countries and periods and most of the common dates are already filled. Some years back I broke up my worldwide collection to focus only on those areas I have a genuine interest in. That gives me a swap list full of good quality coins which are in high demand but very often the demand comes from folks who don't have what I need. I guess I could parcel them up and sell them on eBay but honestly guys.... I hate that place. So I try to find ways to make swaps work. Coins are preferred but failing that there's always junk silver or as a last resort cash. I've also swapped coins for stamps, militaria, jewelry and firearms.
It's not as bleak an outlook as it seems. One of my interests is collecting Leper Colony coinage which is unbelievably hard to find outside of eBay. In just a few years I've put together what I'm willing to bet is the most comprehensive collection of anyone on Numista and I've done so entirely through swapping. I've got friends and contacts in all parts of the world who keep an eye open for the coins I need and when they can find them, we make a swap. I love going coin shopping and Florida's the best place in the world for it. When I do so, it's always with one eye open for coins that I know someone else is looking for. I'm approaching 300 swaps now so it seems to be working and there's no reason it can't work for you too. Sometimes you just have to get creative.
Non responding members are frustrating but don't take it personally. I'd guess that around 90% of the accounts here are long dormant. If you go to your sent mail box you can see which messages have not been read. Sometimes it's a language barrier, more often it's just someone weary of typing polite declines. I get almost daily swap offers from people checking off $100s worth of coins who's entire swap list has a combined value of less than $10. I try to respond politely and often find that some ways down the road that same person has grown into someone with exactly the coins I'm looking for. Now I find myself grateful that his original request was met with courtesy instead of being ignored. Sometimes though it backfires.....
I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that if you're here just to sell coins then you're losing out on one of Numista's greatest strengths - a community of overwhelmingly good, honest and decent folks who are busily helping each other to build first rate collections. A friend is worth far more in the long term than a mere customer.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
It's more than just security for buyers, it's also about splitting up the sales from the swap requests into a coherent section and having them regulated by a moderator who is monitoring just that section rather than having to worry about the rest of the forums as well.
Just for reference/data, I have been here over seven years, and I have less than 1,400 forum posts (200/yr) and less than 70 swaps (10/yr).
I think the "sales forum" should be unlocked when you meet the following:
1) 90 days of membership.
2) specified your location in your profile settings, accurate to postal code.
2) have completed swaps with at least 15 members who have been here longer than you.
Due to language barriers, I don't think it's fair to tie access to forum usage.
Citeer: "Cerulean"Just for reference/data, I have been here over seven years, and I have less than 1,400 forum posts (200/yr) and less than 70 swaps (10/yr).
I think the "sales forum" should be unlocked when you meet the following:
1) 90 days of membership.
2) specified your location in your profile settings, accurate to postal code.
2) have completed swaps with at least 15 members who have been here longer than you.
Due to language barriers, I don't think it's fair to tie access to forum usage.
Sure language barriers are an issue, but it's just to show participation rather than just allowing anyone to jump on here just to sell coins. As Phil pointed out, with the MPCC it's pretty easy to rack up some forum posts just by voting with your favourite coins. That shows a level of participation.
Citeer: "derf"This whole thing sounds to me like the beginning of numistaBay ..
Would that be a bad thing?
Having a selling forum with restrictions on who could sell would be a hell of a lot more appealing than e-bay where half the sellers don't know what the hell they're talking about, half the stuff is way overpriced because the seller is a speculator trying to make a buck rather than a fellow collector, and the few auctions that are decent coins with decent pictures and decent prices are flooded by pretty much every serious collector and go for huge amounts.
Citeer: "derf"This whole thing sounds to me like the beginning of numistaBay ..
Would that be a bad thing?
Nope, didn't imply that it was. Just stating what it looked like to me. If in fact it does come to being, I hope that the requirements are extremely tight ...
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Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
) and 25 successful swaps without any negative feedback. Then they would need to be address verified. It may sound tough, but I think it's worth it to weed out the scam artists as 1 year, 500 posts and 25 swaps is a lot of effort to put in to get a few dollars out of people. You would also need to weed out any sales posts from non compliant people in the swaps forum. 
