Finally Here Folks!!! Got it back from ICCS today.
Pics are taken thru 2 layers of plastic, so not sharp.
Regardless, I'm a happy camper today . Proud parent of a fine young Vickie.
This makes 4 certified known examples. I've tracked down the 3 others and one was not graded (poor quality), Rob says one was EF and sold at auction, the other was also EF but did not sell due to corrosion.
So it looks like mine is one of 2???
I'm a Canadian Cent collector but, by date only. So I would be selling this and upgrading some of my other Vicky's to nice EF's or perhaps some nice colonials.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure, that just ain't so. Mark Twain
I did see the price in Cdn. Coin News at $2,000 for F-12.
coinsandcanada.com lists grades from AG to AU, and gives each grade a price, and they show auction values for 2017/2018 for an F-12 (damaged) 1858 coinage oriented selling for $1,150.
Don't you think it's a curious list of prices, given that there are very few saleable coins, and apparently even less that are in decent condition (the EF & my F-12)?
I have been trying to discover how both those sites arrive at those prices, as Charlton and Krause will not assign values. In fact Charlton states (page 41) " ONLY THREE CERTIFIED".
So in terms of rarity, this would be a 99/100 to 100/100.
Let's say I were to lose it; how would I ever replace it? What would it cost me to replace it, if I could even find one in as good condition? The short answer would be I couldn't.
My LCS said $5,000 to $15,000, given the rarity and condition (I doubt they would pay me that much, LOL).
So I'm doing an informal poll: What do members of this community think the value should be?
Citeer: "Wealth101"@ Camerinvs
I did see the price in Cdn. Coin News at $2,000 for F-12.
coinsandcanada.com lists grades from AG to AU, and gives each grade a price, and they show auction values for 2017/2018 for an F-12 (damaged) 1858 coinage oriented selling for $1,150.
Don't you think it's a curious list of prices, given that there are very few saleable coins, and apparently even less that are in decent condition (the EF & my F-12)?
I have been trying to discover how both those sites arrive at those prices, as Charlton and Krause will not assign values. In fact Charlton states (page 41) "ONLY THREE CERTIFIED".
So in terms of rarity, this would be a 99/100 to 100/100. Let's say I were to lose it; how would I ever replace it? What would it cost me to replace it, if I could even find one in as good condition? The short answer would be I couldn't.
My LCS said $5,000 to $15,000, given the rarity and condition (I doubt they would pay me that much, LOL).
So I'm doing an informal poll: What do members of this community think the value should be?
Remember that the number of certified coins is not the total number of coins. It is conceivable that dozens are out there which have not been certified or reported. It may well be that some collectors have one of them and never noticed the "upset" orientation, since otherwise it's the same coin as the regular 1858 cent, medal orientation.
And yet... yet... you would expect some in lower grades to have been reported, i.e. G and VG. That none has been reported so far suggests that the upset dies is quite a rare variety indeed. Still, it's not like all of them have been certified -- that would be most unlikely.
Such rarities normally get sold at auctions, and it's anyone's guess what the hammer price will be for any such coin. In catalogues and trend lists, the value assigned to rarities is normally based on averaging the prices realized at past auctions.
Citeer: "Camerinvs"
And yet... yet... you would expect some in lower grades to have been reported, i.e. G and VG. That none has been reported so far suggests that the upset dies is quite a rare variety indeed.
From Rob Turner's site: "Many Victorian cents exhibit die rotations of less than 30 degrees in either direction. Die rotations of greater than 30 degrees are much scarcer and any approaching 180 degrees are quite rare."
This is where I am coming from. A 180 degree die rotation is quite rare. And one in good condition is even rarer, as you suggested there don't seem to be AG, G, or VG grades.
I would agree with you that there may be some out there that may or may not have been discovered; however, if an acknowledged expert like Rob Turner hasn't heard of them, how possible is it they will surface, if not by now. Given the listed prices in Cda. Coin News, people would have checked their collections years ago.
So, again, where does this place the value in the minds of serious collectors?
Citeer: "Wealth101"From Rob Turner's site: "Many Victorian cents exhibit die rotations of less than 30 degrees in either direction. Die rotations of greater than 30 degrees are much scarcer and any approaching 180 degrees are quite rare."
https://www.victoriancent.com/victorian-cent-errors.html
This is where I am coming from. A 180 degree die rotation is quite rare. And one in good condition is even rarer, as you suggested there don't seem to be AG, G, or VG grades.
I would agree with you that there may be some out there that may or may not have been discovered; however, if an acknowledged expert like Rob Turner hasn't heard of them, how possible is it they will surface, if not by now. Given the listed prices in Cda. Coin News, people would have checked their collections years ago.
and
Citeer: "Wealth101"Mine appears to be approximately 165 - 170 degree rotation.
Oh! I thought there was a difference between upset dies (much more interesting) and a die rotation (cool but much less interesting).
A die rotation close to 180° happens when the (usually upper) die is loose and starts rotating from a point at or close to 0°.
Upset dies happens when the upper die was installed in an upset position from the start. So, in the case of a medal (↑↑) orientation coin (like the 1858 cent is) an upset die happens when the mint worker mistakenly installed the die in the coin (↑↓) position.
I hope ICCS is right it is a die upset! A die rotation close to 180° would be cool, but it would qualify as an error, not a catalogue variety.
You could say that die upsets happened with the Bank of Upper Canada tokens, when the Heaton Mint did not retain the medal alignment used at the Royal Mint. They are a true variety, listed in catalogues, but they are quite common and therefore not worth a lot.
And I think I remember a post on Cointalk about Canadian cents from the 1960s and 1970s which showed rotation close to 180°, but were not the result of upset dies.
CiteerSo, again, where does this place the value in the minds of serious collectors?
If the good folks at Charlton won't value your coin, I'm not going to take a crack at it.
From my Charlton Standard Catalogue, 2015. "Populations of two, three, four, or even up to a total of ten coin examples, made little sense for us to try and arrive at a suggested market value."
In short, what a collector is willing to pay.
Nice Cent and Good Luck.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure, that just ain't so. Mark Twain
Well clearly it's a coin with a very substantial value but beyond that it's anyone's guess.
You could put it on eBay and watch it sell for $100 (which is why I put no stock in "ebay prices" ) or opt for one of the better auction houses. A coin like this will attract dealers, collectors and investors. Dealers and investors will have a fixed price in mind at which they can make a profit and once that's reached they will opt out and move on. However for collectors its rather more compelling - they want that coin.
Given that the number of potential buyers shrinks as you near the tip of the pyramid I'd be holding onto it, waiting for the perfect storm of a prominent auction house, hosting a major sale of Canadian coins, at a time when disposable incomes are on the rise.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Citeer: "Oh! I thought there was a difference between upset dies (much more interesting) and a die rotation (cool but much less interesting). A die rotation close to 180° happens when the (usually upper) die is loose and starts rotating from a point at or close to 0°."Oh! I thought there was a difference between upset dies (much more interesting) and a die rotation (cool but much less interesting). A die rotation close to 180° happens when the (usually upper) die is loose and starts rotating from a point at or close to 0°.
Upset dies happens when the upper die was installed in an upset position from the start. So, in the case of a medal (↑↑) orientation coin (like the 1858 cent is) an upset die happens when the mint worker mistakenly installed the die in the coin (↑↓) position.
I hope ICCS is right it is a die upset! A die rotation close to 180° would be cool, but it would qualify as an error, not a catalogue variety.
Interesting point.
"Upset Die" is not a term I have heard being used by ppl, so until I received your post making a distinction between the two, it had not come up.
In trying to think through how a die could continue to rotate bit by bit until it reached 170 degrees, without the results being noticed by the minter, escapes me. I have not heard of any examples of these early Canadian Vickies with 70, 100, 120, 150 rotations. Certainly that would be interesting to see.
I believe ICCS has an international reputation for quality, plus they have archives to refer to. I would trust that their assessment of "Upset Dies" is referring to the same thing you are referring to; either the obverse or reverse dies were placed in the wrong position. And given the rarity of 1858s with this rotation out of the 425,000 coins minted with 1858 dates, it suggests the minter noticed the error quite quickly. Of course, that is not based on any scientific evidence I have conducted, just MHO.
Oh yes, you're probably right. I was just saying that since your coin is an "upset dies" it should not be confused with the error known as a rotated die.
And yes, there are examples of near 180° rotated dies.
The four attested 1858 "upset dies", including the corroded ones, must have been all struck within minutes. It would be interesting to know whether they all have the same slight deviation off the perfect 180°. One of the corroded cents was posted on Numista some weeks ago, but I can't find it now.
Citeer: "Camerinvs" One of the corroded cents was posted on Numista some weeks ago, but I can't find it now.
Here's the one you may have been talking about. Judging from the way he has posted the pictures, it looks exactly like the same 170 degree upset die as the one I have. Thanks for bringing that idea into play. Every piece of the puzzle helps.
. Proud parent of a fine young Vickie.
