Split Austran Schilling [opgelost]

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ceh2019

Lid sinds: 4-jan-2019
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Bericht: 11-nov-2019, 20:39 #

I've noticed that the Austrian Schilling coinages are combined into a single currency, dated 1925-2001. Since there was a clear division either side of WWII, during which the Reichsmark circulated in Austria, I propose that the two be split. To make things easier, the current currency should be changed to 1945-2001 and a new currency (1925-1938) be created for the earlier issues (there being fewer of these to move).
I recognise that terms such as "First Schilling" and "Second Schilling" are problematic, due to the currency reform of 1947, but, as this only affected the banknotes in circulation and not the coins, I'm sure we can come up with appropriate names for the two distinct coinages.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Sjoelund

Lid sinds: 28-mar-2012
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Bericht: 13-nov-2019, 22:37 #

I certainly do NOT approve... no use to complicate things, which seems to be one of the purposes of Numista since a certain time! I USE THE DETAILED SEARCH ALL THE TIME, let me my freedom, please.

Ole

Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com

ceh2019

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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 12:19 #

How does getting the correct organization for a catalogue complicate things? Look at Yugoslavia, where each distinct version of the dinar has a separate section. Would that be better if they were all grouped together? If there's an advantage to grouping all currencies with the same name together, could you possibly explain what that is?

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Sjoelund

Lid sinds: 28-mar-2012
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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 13:00 #

It's the way one is organizing ones collection. As an example I've NOT split Germany into the the different periods, my only split, is between Germany before the money reform and then from when it became Bundesrepublic Deutschland. I must admit, that I might have done that different, IF Numista had existed 50 years ago and IF I had had access to SCWC some 30 years ago, now I'm a "slave" of my old habits....

I can not see myself reorganizing my collection of more than 40.000 different coins according to new splits all the time, hence I'm against it, but since I'm only one single person out of tens of thousands of Numista collectors, my opinion doesn't really count for more than ONE vote, does it?

Ole

Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com

ceh2019

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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 16:30 #

Now I understand what the problem is. Unlike you, I organize my collection by set rather than by denomination, and have just had to put up with catalogues listing coins by denomination. Let's see what the broader opinion is. Ideally, a sophisticated website like this should have the facility for users to list coins sorted by different criteria. I for one would like to remove all non-circulating coins from what I see but I don't think that's available right now.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 17:11 #

I will asnwer your proposal with a question. Did the Austrian Schilling have a different ISO code than the one after WWII? The currency of Austria I know is the ATS. What currency code did the one pre-1945 have? If it had the same ISO code, then it's the same currency and should not be split. If it, on the other hand, did have a different ISO code, then it's a different matter worth be considering.

ceh2019

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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 20:49 #

I could be wrong but I don't think ISO codes existed when the first Austrian Schilling was in circulation.
Perhaps a little background will help? Austria adopted the Schilling in 1925, replacing the Krone (10,000 Krone = 1 Schilling). In 1938, the Anschluss with Germany lead to the replacement of the Schilling with the Reichsmark (1½ Schilling = 1 Reichsmark). In 1945, the new Schilling replaced the Reichsmark at parity. In 1947, a reform of the paper money took place with each person allowed to exchange 150 Schilling at parity and larger sums at 3 old Schilling for 1 new Schilling. The coinage was not affected by this reform. Thus, whilst one can question the relative status of the 1945-1947 and 1947-2002 Schilling, there is no direct relationship between the 1925-1938 Schilling and the later currency(ies).

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 21:01 #

Citeer: "ceh2019"I could be wrong but I don't think ISO codes existed when the first Austrian Schilling was in circulation.

I don't know either when the ISO codes came, but I know that the Yugoslav dinar that circulated 1929-1945 had the ISO code YUS.

neilithicman

Lid sinds: 22-nov-2017
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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 23:01 #

If the currency was called the same thing with the same denominations then surely it should be kept the same? You can view it as a continuous currency with a short period of occupation coinage?

What? Me Worry

ngdawa

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Bericht: 14-nov-2019, 23:24 #

Citeer: "neilithicman"If the currency was called the same thing with the same denominations then surely it should be kept the same? You can view it as a continuous currency with a short period of occupation coinage?

I agree!

ceh2019

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Bericht: 15-nov-2019, 10:23 #

Citeer: "neilithicman"If the currency was called the same thing with the same denominations then surely it should be kept the same? You can view it as a continuous currency with a short period of occupation coinage?

Sorry but that wasn't the case. The old Schilling could not be exchanged for the new Schilling in 1945. Note that the exchange rates to and from the Reichsmark were different. Its perhaps worth mentioning that KM splits the two with a note on the Reichsmark circulating in between.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ngdawa

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Bericht: 15-nov-2019, 15:01 #

Citeer: "ceh2019"

Citeer: "neilithicman"If the currency was called the same thing with the same denominations then surely it should be kept the same? You can view it as a continuous currency with a short period of occupation coinage?
Sorry but that wasn't the case. The old Schilling could not be exchanged for the new Schilling in 1945. Note that the exchange rates to and from the Reichsmark were different. Its perhaps worth mentioning that KM splits the two with a note on the Reichsmark circulating in between.

The schillin was devaluated during this time. It's easy to see ince the 100 schilling coins are nowhere to been seen after 1940. It can still be the same currency though.

ceh2019

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Bericht: 15-nov-2019, 18:13 #

Citeer: "ngdawa"The schillin was devaluated during this time. It's easy to see ince the 100 schilling coins are nowhere to been seen after 1940. It can still be the same currency though.

No, the Schilling was not circulating. The Reichsmark was. The new Schilling was actually worth more (relative to the Reichsmark) than the old one. All Schilling coins disappear after 1938, not just the gold ones.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 15-nov-2019, 18:35 #

Citeer: "ceh2019"

Citeer: "ngdawa"The schillin was devaluated during this time. It's easy to see ince the 100 schilling coins are nowhere to been seen after 1940. It can still be the same currency though.

No, the Schilling was not circulating. The Reichsmark was. The new Schilling was actually worth more (relative to the Reichsmark) than the old one. All Schilling coins disappear after 1938, not just the gold ones.

I know, and that's not what I said. I was just too lazy to look up the exact date.

ceh2019

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Bericht: 16-nov-2019, 11:38 #

Citeer: "ngdawa"I will asnwer your proposal with a question. Did the Austrian Schilling have a different ISO code than the one after WWII? The currency of Austria I know is the ATS. What currency code did the one pre-1945 have? If it had the same ISO code, then it's the same currency and should not be split. If it, on the other hand, did have a different ISO code, then it's a different matter worth be considering.

A little digging has turned up the code ATO for the 1925-1938 Schilling.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 16-nov-2019, 16:56 #
Gewijzigd: 16-nov-2019, 16:58

Citeer: "ceh2019"A little digging has turned up the code ATO for the 1925-1938 Schilling.

And there we have our answer:
▪ First Shilling, ATO, 1925-1938
▪ Second Shilling, ATS, 1947-2001

neilithicman

Lid sinds: 22-nov-2017
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Bericht: 17-nov-2019, 22:01 #

Sounds right.

What? Me Worry

ceh2019

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Bericht: 20-nov-2019, 20:54 #

If there is agreement on this, how do we move it forward? Also, is there any way we can address Ole's issue with changes like this?

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 20-nov-2019, 22:18 #

Citeer: "ceh2019"If there is agreement on this, how do we move it forward? Also, is there any way we can address Ole's issue with changes like this?

I don't really see the problem. It will be just like the Yugoslav dinar - seperated by a line and a different ISO code. That's it. You will still find is if you search "Austria 10 Groschen".

We can't ignore that the Austrian Schilling 1925-1938 and 1945-1999 are two different two currencies.
The Old Schilling had the exchange rate of 2 German reichsmark to 3 Schilling. And the New Shilling had the exchange rate of 1 German reichsmark to 1 Schilling.

Status gewijzigd naar Goedgekeurd (Jarcek, 20-nov-2019, 22:35)

Sjoelund

Lid sinds: 28-mar-2012
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Bericht: 21-nov-2019, 10:07 #

Citeer: "ngdawa"

Citeer: "ceh2019"If there is agreement on this, how do we move it forward? Also, is there any way we can address Ole's issue with changes like this?
I don't really see the problem. It will be just like the Yugoslav dinar - seperated by a line and a different ISO code. That's it. You will still find is if you search "Austria 10 Groschen".

We can't ignore that the Austrian Schilling 1925-1938 and 1945-1999 are two different two currencies.
The Old Schilling had the exchange rate of 2 German reichsmark to 3 Schilling. And the New Shilling had the exchange rate of 1 German reichsmark to 1 Schilling.

and in the advanced search?

Ole

Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com

Jarcek Numista team

Lid sinds: 22-dec-2014
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Bericht: 21-nov-2019, 10:26 #

Ole, what exactly are you trying to search?

Catalogue administrator

Sjoelund

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Bericht: 21-nov-2019, 10:43 #

Citeer: "Jarcek"Ole, what exactly are you trying to search?

just Austria and then the km# .... but with my beloved advanced search. If that still works, I'm happy

Ole

Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com

Jarcek Numista team

Lid sinds: 22-dec-2014
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Bericht: 21-nov-2019, 11:48 #

That will work just fine.

Catalogue administrator

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 21-nov-2019, 13:37 #

Citeer: "Sjoelund"
Citeer: "Jarcek"Ole, what exactly are you trying to search?
just Austria and then the km# .... but with my beloved advanced search. If that still works, I'm happy

Ole

The km#'s won't change, why would they?

Status gewijzigd naar klaar (Jarcek, 21-nov-2019, 15:04)

Jarcek Numista team

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Bericht: 21-nov-2019, 15:04 #

Ok, new currency was just created, so now we only need to move coins.

Catalogue administrator

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 21-nov-2019, 17:10 #

Citeer: "Jarcek"Ok, new currency was just created, so now we only need to move coins.

Děkuji!

ceh2019

Lid sinds: 4-jan-2019
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Bericht: 23-nov-2019, 21:46 #

Just started moving the coins to the First Schilling (1925-1938) and it struck me we also need to create a new period for the Federal State (1934-1938), changing the dates for the first republic to 1919-1934. See

http://www.archontology.org/nations/austria/01_polity.php

for details.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 00:49 #

Also, Austrian Krone circulated from 1919 (dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire) until 1925 (introduction of the First Schilling). Now it says 1923-1924 for the Krone.

Ecapoe

Lid sinds: 7-dec-2013
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 09:10 #

Hello fellow collectors,

At least as a courtoisie, and maybe also if he/I had something to say, it would be nice to send a little note to the referee of a country when a topic like this is opened. This is valid for any country.

I had to dig through the en forum - not much I have to admit

- to find what all that was about before validating ceh2019 requests.

BTW, I am ok for the split of the shilling with the Mark in between. Apart from the name, the currencies are different. However, let's try not to change too often the catalogue. It is a lot of work each time and trouble for collectors who follow it to organize their collection.

All the best and happy collecting.

Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 10:15 #

Citeer: "Ecapoe"Hello fellow collectors,

At least as a courtoisie, and maybe also if he/I had something to say, it would be nice to send a little note to the referee of a country when a topic like this is opened. This is valid for any country.

Well, of curse the referee should be informed. S-/he should be the first one to knlw what's gonna happen. I just assumed you were.
Well, I guess we're all glad you agree on this.

Jarcek Numista team

Lid sinds: 22-dec-2014
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 11:52 #

Ouch, sorry!

Catalogue administrator

ceh2019

Lid sinds: 4-jan-2019
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 13:36 #

Apologies to Ecapoe. I assumed the system would alert the referee if a topic with their country's name in it came up. I shall know better in future.
Can we get the Federal State added to the list of periods? Then we can move over the coins from that period to the First Schilling in one go.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Ecapoe

Lid sinds: 7-dec-2013
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 18:50 #

All fine

. There is no such system, and would possibly be tricky to set up.

The Federal State is important (or Austrofascismus

). If we consider a ruler by a significant change in the constitution, then it was one. The official history states the the 1st rep ended with the 1934 putsch. See here https://www.demokratiewebstatt.at/thema/thema-100-jahre-gruendung-der-republik/die-anfangsjahre-der-ersten-republik/das-langsame-ende-der-ersten-republik/
For coinage, humm, the trouble is with the 3 groschen coins that spanned over both periods. I am not sure where 1934 coins belong ?

I don't have my catalogue at hand and I don't know what Netto does but I don't remember them ending the 1st republic in 1934.

Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...

ngdawa

Lid sinds: 18-okt-2011
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 19:08 #

Citeer: "Ecapoe"For coinage, humm, the trouble is with the 3 groschen coins that spanned over both periods. I am not sure where 1934 coins belong ?

I guess it depends on if they were struck before or after 1 July.

ceh2019

Lid sinds: 4-jan-2019
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Bericht: 24-nov-2019, 23:29 #

The easiest thing to do is to put all coins which began production in or after 1934 in the Federal State. They all omit the word "Republik" and show the double-headed eagle rather than the single-headed (as used by the republic). The 1, 2 and 5 Groschen that overlap the two periods can quite happily stay in the First Republic period. There are a great many coins struck across more than one monarch's reign that are not split up between them. These three needn't be an exception.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Gumardee

Lid sinds: 21-feb-2019
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Bericht: 18-dec-2019, 00:39 #

I agree with the split, they are different currencies. it is like putting the two slaovak Kronas 1939-45, 1993-2008 together lol. The German Goldmark and Papiermark are seperated, which they should be NOT as thy are the same currency.

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