I do support adding banknotes as I do collect them. I will soon be adding some of mine but...can we try to do it properly? I mean why on earth will somebody upload something like this, and why would somebody else approve it?
For the circumstances you are all doing a great job, but we really need some minimum standards that go further than a little blurry picture and a title. We have so many fast made entries that doubles have popped up multiple times.
To me it seems that this is some kind of gold rush to get some cheap fast participation points (I don't know who cares about these though) when I see certain members contributions.
The argument it can be made better later is a weak one in my opinion when everything would have to be re-done. You have the banknote describe it at least a little and put in the text if you know the alphabet there is no need to rush ... we waited for years what are a few more minutes to make a decent page?
Personally I would send many of the requests back to be polished up by the user, but at the speed we have now probably two more for the same note would end up in th queue.
Citeer: "Oklahoman"3 out of around 800 is hardly the total mess you describe. Routine follow up corrected the members initial mistake.
It's going amazingly well for barely 24 hours in.
By all means submit your edits.
I only gave 3 examples it doesn't mean that's all of them. I would really like to help, but I am disappointed by the way the members are reacting. We could have done it properly from the beginning, not just uploading everything and then editing.
Citeer: "Oklahoman"It's going amazingly well for barely 24 hours in.
Agreed.
As of this post, we have one person assigned as a formal referee to some countries. Only one. That leaves Oklahoman and me with the rest of the (slightly over) 200 countries. That is quite a bit for two people, and it will not remain this way. More referees will be appointed.
But referees cannot be appointed if we are not sure what to appoint them to.
And we will not know what to appoint referees to unless banknotes are added.
Everything is going fast, but I think it is going quite well. I have been having fun finding banknotes from missing countries. Many countries only have one or two. Some have dozens. All depends on the popularity. And luckily, those that are more popular are more likely to have people who want to be referee.
While some people may not like this process, I think it is quite efficiant (especially for how new it all is).
Honestly. For everyone you see there are about 10 or 15 you never will.
Be kind. Mistakes are found in the coin side all the time. Refs fix it or members fix it. Gives all ownership in the process.
I have noticed many people from the french side, many South American members, and frankly, many members who I have no familiarity with. All creating.
In a little over 24 hours we have more than 800 listings, more than 200 countries and issuers. I am sorry about how some listings are are upsetting you. Please make edits just as you would on the coin side of things.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Please do. And look at what member tanman has done for the US federal reserve 1 dollar. It's amazing. We need someone with the same passion to flesh out India where each listing might need 20 or more entries...every country actually. Thanks for creating!
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Citeer: "allexis"We could have done it properly from the beginning, not just uploading everything and then editing.
This is my reaction as well. A lot of banknotes are being added without pictures and descriptions. It's more important to be first than doing it right. It won't be a fun job for future referees to browse through hundreds of pages and add descriptions of front and back.
Citeer: "ngdawa"This is my reaction as well. A lot of banknotes are being added without pictures and descriptions. It's more important to be first than doing it right. It won't be a fun job for future referees to browse through hundreds of pages and add descriptions of front and back.
Agreed - new pages should not be created (and accepted) without description and lettering.
Some poor team member would have to add them later, when it is only right that
whoever created an incomplete page should have done it originally. How hard can it be?
I sence there is a problem when the master referee are making requests like these. In the future all of the requests like this one will be rejected. It wouldn't be accepted in the coin section, so why should we accept it in the banknote section?
And yes, I might still be a little bitter to have not even been asked to be a master referee after 7 years of fighting for banknotes on Numista.
CiteerOh, I didn't realize there was a referee here :)
No, you didn't. So playtime's over! Let's make the best catalogue there is, not the sloppiest catalogue no one even haa the energy to look at.
Our motto should be: Let's do it slow, and let's do it right!
I still find this banknote section totally unusable, as it only adds totals to my coin collection, which I definitely do not want.
As, have stated above, we have run before we can walk, or it this case crawl. Rules should have been set, and totally agreed by all referees. Any banknote added outside of these rules should be refused.
I have total sympathy with the referees, but we need rules.
If we continue in the same vein as we are at the moment, I can only see catastrophe.
ZacUK,
It's a shambles now and is only going to get worse if this continues in its present format. I had many coins refused until I learnt the rules, so banknotes should be no different
Citeer: "COINMAN1"ZacUK,
It's a shambles now and is only going to get worse if this continues in its present format. I had many coins refused until I learnt the rules, so banknotes should be no different
I totally agree!
And especially the master referees should know the rules!
Numista Bank Note Database construction is and with its nature a mammoth task and there will be a few problems as it grows but they will be solved as it goes along and don't get disheartened Constructive help is better than Criticism as I have found and we always get a few in any walk of life who find fault in anything they do so keep up the good work it will come good in the end.
Citeer: "Ian P"Numista Bank Note Database construction is and with its nature a mammoth task and there will be a few problems as it grows but they will be solved as it goes along and don't get disheartened Constructive help is better than Criticism as I have found and we always get a few in any walk of life who find fault in anything they do so keep up the good work it will come good in the end.
I agree, also the current coin section is full of errors and if we had to wait until everything is perfect then you never start anything.
It's a collaborative catalogue that's mean if you see an error go ahead and submit the correction to make it better.
Also I don't get the point to refuse a bad submittion, why don't you just ask for a revision? It's frustrating to have a page just deleted because someone is bitter and have got pages refused in the past. That's not the correct way. If a page is not submitted correctly, send it to revision, otherwise you will kill the collaborative mood that is essential here to improve the website.
Citeer: "Indomini16"I agree, also the current coin section is full of errors and if we had to wait until everything is perfect then you never start anything.
Or you just do it right from the beginning. Of cours there'll be errors, but here they don't even try.
Citeer: "Indomini16"Also I don't get the point to refuse a bad submittion, why don't you just ask for a revision? It's frustrating to have a page just deleted because someone is bitter and have got pages refused in the past.
I'm not bitter in that sense of the word, and it's not a personal vendetta or anything, so please don't get me wrong here. I have approved pages with requests of additions - which in many cases has been added. But when empty pages after pages comes in just for the sake of "being first", or something, At least put some effort in it.
ZacUK,
so your last comment is a rule. Nice to see.
Please be fully aware, that I am not criticizing, but only trying to explain the lack of initial construction of this site is lacking in rules, which only causes more problems further down the system.
As I do not have anything to do this system, I suppose I should not be complaining, but referees have enough to do without asking for additional information all of the time.
Citeer: "COINMAN1"ZacUK,
so your last comment is a rule. Nice to see.
Please be fully aware, that I am not criticizing, but only trying to explain the lack of initial construction of this site is lacking in rules, which only causes more problems further down the system.
As I do not have anything to do this system, I suppose I should not be complaining, but referees have enough to do without asking for additional information all of the time.
Well, if we don't point them out there won't be any change. It would be nice if Zac's last comment was a rule though.
Well... I've done some editing for a couple of hours now and it is going slow. Most of the entries are incomplete. I understand that not everybody has a catalog to search for the numbers, size or varieties in signatures or whatever, but is annoying to find that not even the shape is not submitted, because you have to write it you can't choose it from the drop down menu. I find this a lack of respect for everybody who is putting this catalog together.
To ngdawa's post at 15-Apr-2020, 02:03AM (I cannot seem to quote it):
My goal, since the beginning of this, has been to build the country list, and countries only appear if at least one item is under them (hence why I have only been adding one banknote to every country without banknotes). You have rejected my requests. That is fine. Keep in mind, Turkmenistan and Transnistria should now be the only major countries left without banknotes.
I say major because there are still state issuers and new countries to be considered.
Typically, I would never make a request with such a lack of information. But again: I am trying to build the country list. My apologies if my process upsets you.
Citeer: "Sulfur"My goal, since the beginning of this, has been to build the country list, and countries only appear if at least one item is under them (hence why I have only been adding one banknote to every country without banknotes).
I just don't see the point why. And if you just add one banknote for each country, why not make it right? People will use the first note as a frame of how they will add the next one.
I think it would be easier to appoint referees that way.
If people see which countries need referees, they may apply; if we can see what needs refereeing, we can appoint them. Some countries have a lot of participation--that is good. Some are rather weird, like Isles de France et Bonaparte (never expected to find something from there).
I am not worried about Turkmenistan or Transnistria. You are already a referee for them, so you will probably add something eventually. And no need to assign another referee because one is already there. If you want to go at your own pace: fine by me.
Citeer: "ngdawa"This is my reaction as well. A lot of banknotes are being added without pictures and descriptions. It's more important to be first than doing it right. It won't be a fun job for future referees to browse through hundreds of pages and add descriptions of front and back.
Agreed - new pages should not be created (and accepted) without description and lettering.
Some poor team member would have to add them later, when it is only right that
whoever created an incomplete page should have done it originally. How hard can it be?
Generally I agree that there should be lettering. But I have more than 1000 austrian notgeld. I don´t know how much time it will take to add the text. For example: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note202565.html
At coins I search often for some parts of lettering. I think at notes it´s not necessary. But it´s just my opinion.
Citeer: "ngdawa"This is my reaction as well. A lot of banknotes are being added without pictures and descriptions. It's more important to be first than doing it right. It won't be a fun job for future referees to browse through hundreds of pages and add descriptions of front and back.
Agreed - new pages should not be created (and accepted) without description and lettering.
Some poor team member would have to add them later, when it is only right that
whoever created an incomplete page should have done it originally. How hard can it be?
Generally I agree that there should be lettering. But I have more than 1000 austrian notgeld. I don´t know how much time it will take to add the text. For example:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note202565.html
At coins I search often for some parts of lettering. I think at notes it´s not necessary. But it´s just my opinion.
I don't reckon all lettering needs to be added, like seven 10's or something like that. Unless there's just a value in numbers, I don't add the numbers in the lettering box, but some people are "translating" the numbers.
Not creating a need. The need has always been there. Just making it apparent.
Even if a country only has a couple banknotes, a referee would still be nice. People have different interests and specializations, so even if there are few banknotes, someone with a lot of interest in that area could make the section look really nice.
Citeer: "Sulfur"Not creating a need. The need has always been there. Just making it apparent.
Well, since the catalogue was empty just a few days ago, I'd say this is creating a need.
Citeer: "Sulfur"Even if a country only has a couple banknotes, a referee would still be nice. People have different interests and specializations, so even if there are few banknotes, someone with a lot of interest in that area could make the section look really nice.
I see your point and I agree with you, I just find it provoking to attentionally not adding information to the sheet.
Citeer: "ngdawa"Well, since the catalogue was empty just a few days ago, I'd say this is creating a need.
I am really not sure what you want me to say.
Correct: the banknote catalogue did not exist a few days. But when it was created, so was the need for referees. I know I am happy there is finally a banknote section--will even start adding them to my collection when I get some free time.
I also know I cannot make everyone happy. It is unreasonable to expect that. Seems you are not happy. Alright. I will not try to change that.
I awoke to around 750 requests today (coins and banknotes). I do not see anything else for me to say without repeating myself, so... yeah. Back to the banknotes.
I hope the 750 do not contain as many errors as already seem to have permeated this banknote system. Still, no one will write down a minimum requirement for each new banknote added. This would set the standard which everyone can follow, thus making the referees jobs easier.
Citeer: "Sulfur"I also know I cannot make everyone happy. It is unreasonable to expect that. Seems you are not happy. Alright. I will not try to change that.
I would love for you to change that, and it's really simple: Add description of obverse and reverse Before adding a new banknote. That's really all I ask. No extreme expertise of the exakt fiber in the paper, or how long the man behind the signature was the governor. Just a few words of what's depicted on the note, that it really all I was asking.
7 years, man. Seven! That's for how long I've been fighting and dreaming for this day. And now we are finally here. Am I grateful? Of course. But I am also so disappointed since it feels like no one cares and the catalogues is being spammed with pages not even half done.
Rules should have been set days before the opening of this banknote section. It would have been easy to say what the requirements are, thus stopping this very long debate about nothing but hassle.
Citeer: "COINMAN1"Rules should have been set days before the opening of this banknote section. It would have been easy to say what the requirements are, thus stopping this very long debate about nothing but hassle.
Of course you are right. The launch came very sudden and unannounced, and I don't think Xavier really had thought through these details.
I'm jjst wondering what will happen when feature like main colours, watermark, and signatures gets implemented when people can't even add shape correctly.
ngdawa,
Further to my last message, I am also a referee, but for football. We have rules, although they are actually classified as laws.
Every player, coach, manager and officials know these laws before the beginning of every game/season, so it makes life a little easier.
if there were no laws, (rules), football would be chaos.
Citeer: "COINMAN1"Every player, coach, manager and officials know these laws before the beginning of every game/season, so it makes life a little easier.
if there were no laws, (rules), football would be chaos.
This is exactly the flaw here. There are no rules, and no ones seems to want any either.
Not sure what you continue to be upset about...a title. A picture if you have it. A pick number that is a number only, not a number plus a lowercase letter. Descriptions. Have to be flexible about lettering...thankfully lettering edits are being routinely submitted. And at least one of the datelines for the type...
Your listings are nice ngdawa. I really like your pictures. thank you for at least being helpful in that way.
I look forward to all the perfect listings you and your friends create. It is indeed a pleasure approving your posts and edits as quick as possible.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
I am not seeing the problems with lazy creations as far as shape of the note is concerned...I can think of exceptions to the rectangle rule like some east european an asian issues that are square. But I would think if it is as serious as you say that the robot could fix it...or an edit could be made in seconds.
I spend a lot of time adding pick numbers before accepting a page...and I try to make sure all date and type lines are complete. That is very time consuming.
Thankfully members are coming out of the woodwork who have specialized language and writing skills and access to nation specific texts...the posts from south America that have dozens of date and variety lines, and images of signatures and signers is amazing. Those posts will be accepted with gratitude for what they provide this site . And if a minor correction needs made then it can be made.
It's looking nice on the banknote side, and there is mostly positive energy from the dozens of contributors. I think it's just strange that the assumption is we are willy nilly approving everything. That is not the case. Thankfully edits are so easy to handle though. I have noticed a trend of less edits and more creation requests in the que. That seems to bely the horror of no rules. Actually Sulfur might have noticed too that we have a lot of native speakers that are neither french or english speakers...so we have to clean up stuff. But it is happening.
I have enjoyed the coin side of refereeing for years...I am sure that the banknote side will compare in quality and quantity.
All help and constructive criticism is appreciated.
1000 down 100,000 to go!
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
