I got some coins from my grandfather that passed away. He bought them at an auction 46 years ago.
Can someone help me with the value and determ if they are fake or not? Idk if the where selling fake coins 46 years ago...
Here are some details:
-2 kopek 1767 no mintmark
- weight 13.1 gram
- thickness 2 mm
- diameter 29 mm
As to authenticity, it will take a better trained eye than mine to make a solid determination but your example looks like it was cast rather than struck (not a good sign for authenticity).
If I'm wrong (very possible), this link gives a general idea of prices that might be expected based on condition of the coin:
One thing is clear to me, 46 years ago it was not possible to make counterfeit coins in China.
I wouldn't buy a coin like that, I would not believe its authenticity . There is too much effort -about authenticity.
Time alone is a quantity that cannot be deceived / same as ripening cheese /
But again, I would like to be wrong, it's just my opinion -I don't believe her.
Im telling the truth guys. I have more coins also but some of them are worn down to much that i dont take pictures from them. The one that are in great condition are:
- 1/4 kopek 1773 km
- 1/2 kopek 1764 no mintmark
- 1 kopek 1766 km
- 2 kopek 1767 no mintmark
- 10 kopek 1780
- 5 kopek paul I 1796 bronze pattern
Citeer: "loruca"Hello, unfortunately, though unsurprisingly, the whole lot is fake.
sorey to be the bearer of bad news.
LRC
But saying something is fake is easy. Why do you think it is fake? Explaine please how its possible to make fake coins 46 years ago. On ebay are the same coins exactly the same from trusted sellers...
Unfortunately, there's been too many producers of fake coins using forums like this one to advance their art by picking collector's brains for me to publicly explain what the telltale signs on these are, I'll just say that most of the issues come from using a wholly different production method from the original, also the design is frankly just off.
LRC
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
Citeer: "loruca"Unfortunately, there's been too many producers of fake coins using forums like this one to advance their art by picking collector's brains for me to publicly explain what the telltale signs on these are, I'll just say that most of the issues come from using a wholly different production method from the original, also the design is frankly just off.
LRC
So im a produced of coins trying to sell them here? Hahah are you serieus? Let me tell you the story one more time. I am a man of 31 years old working in transport of building materials. No knowlegde on coins at all. Never owned any coins untill my grandfather died. 6 months ago when he was alive he told me i could have them and should take good care of them. However i would like to know the value and thats why i asked people here. To be honnest i was expecting more then everyone saying its fake. If they are fake, then he bought fake coins in 1960s. I frankly doubt it but who am i right? However i respect your opinion but i really think they are not fake.
Hello Timothy,
sorry as I feel bad that you are disapointed but indeed they are all fake, all made at the same workshop.
first mass Produced copies where made somewhere in the region of the 1960‘s 1970‘s
indeed as others have indicates there are several factors showing that these are modern reproductions.
one of the tell tale signs is that you can see that these coins have been cast but should have been struck coins.
other tell tale sign is the perfect round shape which was not the case in the late 1700‘s in Russia.
the overall derails are also off, crude worn looking bust but then perfect lettering without signs of wear. That is not possible.
very sorry for that, most of us coin collectors have probably some day made a bad encounter with reproduction coins and yes that truth can of course hurt.
best regards,
Paul
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Hello!
It was far from my intention to suggest that you were faking coins, rather, that publishing some information onto the internet for all to see is not as good an idea as it once was.
As to the date, good fakes of valuable coins have been around for longer than one might think, and as I've said from the beginning, these are of above average quality.
Regarding their status as fake, I'm certain of it. Beyond any doubt. Just look at the edge/rim of any real certified coin, and compare it to yours, the coining process is not period-accurate.
LRC
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
Citeer: "apuking"Hello Timothy,
sorry as I feel bad that you are disapointed but indeed they are all fake, all made at the same workshop.
first mass Produced copies where made somewhere in the region of the 1960‘s 1970‘s
indeed as others have indicates there are several factors showing that these are modern reproductions.
one of the tell tale signs is that you can see that these coins have been cast but should have been struck coins.
other tell tale sign is the perfect round shape which was not the case in the late 1700‘s in Russia.
the overall derails are also off, crude worn looking bust but then perfect lettering without signs of wear. That is not possible.
very sorry for that, most of us coin collectors have probably some day made a bad encounter with reproduction coins and yes that truth can of course hurt.
best regards,
Paul
Paul,
I found this on the internet :
When it is balanced on the tip of a finger and struck softly with a pen or pencil, a genuine coin usually will produce a high-pitched ring. Most electrotypes and cast copies will merely "thud" or "clunk." Since these pieces are not actually struck, they have relatively little solidity.1 jan. 2020
My coins are not casted for sure. When i strike them, they make a "ring" noise for sure. I wish i could post a video to show you.
Here marked in Red, typical only from cast coins. Details are also too crude for a struck coin.
Can also be seen on other pictures you posted.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Citeer: "apuking"Hello Timothy,
sorry as I feel bad that you are disapointed but indeed they are all fake, all made at the same workshop.
first mass Produced copies where made somewhere in the region of the 1960‘s 1970‘s
indeed as others have indicates there are several factors showing that these are modern reproductions.
one of the tell tale signs is that you can see that these coins have been cast but should have been struck coins.
other tell tale sign is the perfect round shape which was not the case in the late 1700‘s in Russia.
the overall derails are also off, crude worn looking bust but then perfect lettering without signs of wear. That is not possible.
very sorry for that, most of us coin collectors have probably some day made a bad encounter with reproduction coins and yes that truth can of course hurt.
best regards,
Paul
Paul,
I found this on the internet :
When it is balanced on the tip of a finger and struck softly with a pen or pencil, a genuine coin usually will produce a high-pitched ring. Most electrotypes and cast copies will merely "thud" or "clunk." Since these pieces are not actually struck, they have relatively little solidity.1 jan. 2020
My coins are not casted for sure. When i strike them, they make a "ring" noise for sure. I wish i could post a video to show you.
Any full-metal coin will ring to some extent, note for example that most bells are cast, and still ring, the specific article by PCGS you are referring to discusses joined-half electrotypes, those are a whole other can of worms which this coin is certainly not a part of given the lettered edge.
Unfortunately your coin is a good cast, likely made in a quality high-temperature press, but to imprecise standards which will not fool an experienced collector.
LRC
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
Citeer: "apuking"
Here marked in Red, typical only from cast coins. Details are also too crude for a struck coin.
Can also be seen on other pictures you posted.
For all i know casting is done with 2 molds ... So casting error on the top of a coin isnt possible 🧐 it should be on the rim of the coin. However i'm gine leave it here and go to a coincollector/ auctioneer to ask there opinion about these ones.
Citeer: "apuking"
Here marked in Red, typical only from cast coins. Details are also too crude for a struck coin.
Can also be seen on other pictures you posted.
For all i know casting is done with 2 molds ... So casting error on the top of a coin isnt possible 🧐 it should be on the rim of the coin. However i'm gine leave it here and go to a coincollector/ auctioneer to ask there opinion about these ones.
I do in fact agree with the OP on this point, I only see a rather un-surprising die crack in a highly likely position (due to stress on the die in high points of the design) there, that doesn't seem to me like any reason to declare it a fake.
I give up, fakers come here to hear everything told,
The raised rim, that's the nail in the coffin. Of the various design and surface issues, that to an experienced eye give this piece away as a fake, the rim situation is the only one simple enough to explain, but also impossible to explain away.
Note the rim that goes around the entirety of the coin, but that then moves towards the centre on the right?
That shouldn't be there.
For two reasons:
First, there was no raised rim in the design of the original coin, there couldn't have been one, as the edge lettering was milled on in a first step before the design was struck.
Second, the rim you see in your piece is an artifice of the modern three-piece die used in creating this fake: instead of striking a pre-lettered planchet, this piece was struck in a collared die, whose edge held the letter design, this is a cheaper manufacturing process that produces perfectly round planchets, instead of the slightly oval coins coming out of the edge-milling process of the 1700's. As such when creating their dies for these fakes, the original used was not a perfect circle, and its design ended where you now see the raised rim on your piece.
This coin could not possibly have come out of 18th century Russia, the techniques required for a 3-piece die have only existed since the 1810's, and then again only came into general use in the 1820s-1830s.
Laurent
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
Citeer: "apuking"
Here marked in Red, typical only from cast coins. Details are also too crude for a struck coin.
Can also be seen on other pictures you posted.
For all i know casting is done with 2 molds ... So casting error on the top of a coin isnt possible 🧐 it should be on the rim of the coin. However i'm gine leave it here and go to a coincollector/ auctioneer to ask there opinion about these ones.
I do in fact agree with the OP on this point, I only see a rather un-surprising die crack in a highly likely position (due to stress on the die in high points of the design) there, that doesn't seem to me like any reason to declare it a fake.
I give up, fakers come here to hear everything told,
The raised rim, that's the nail in the coffin. Of the various design and surface issues, that to an experienced eye give this piece away as a fake, the rim situation is the only one simple enough to explain, but also impossible to explain away.
Note the rim that goes around the entirety of the coin, but that then moves towards the centre on the right?
That shouldn't be there.
For two reasons:
First, there was no raised rim in the design of the original coin, there couldn't have been one, as the edge lettering was milled on in a first step before the design was struck.
Second, the rim you see in your piece is an artifice of the modern three-piece die used in creating this fake: instead of striking a pre-lettered planchet, this piece was struck in a collared die, whose edge held the letter design, this is a cheaper manufacturing process that produces perfectly round planchets, instead of the slightly oval coins coming out of the edge-milling process of the 1700's. As such when creating their dies for these fakes, the original used was not a perfect circle, and its design ended where you now see the raised rim on your piece.
This coin could not possibly have come out of 18th century Russia, the techniques required for a 3-piece die have only existed since the 1810's, and then again only came into general use in the 1820s-1830s.
Laurent
So people where making fake coins that early? Wauuw i really didnt know. I also am beein honnest that i really dont know anything about coins. All information i have is from internet.
Citeer: "apuking"
Here marked in Red, typical only from cast coins. Details are also too crude for a struck coin.
Can also be seen on other pictures you posted.
For all i know casting is done with 2 molds ... So casting error on the top of a coin isnt possible 🧐 it should be on the rim of the coin. However i'm gine leave it here and go to a coincollector/ auctioneer to ask there opinion about these ones.
I do in fact agree with the OP on this point, I only see a rather un-surprising die crack in a highly likely position (due to stress on the die in high points of the design) there, that doesn't seem to me like any reason to declare it a fake.
I give up, fakers come here to hear everything told,
The raised rim, that's the nail in the coffin. Of the various design and surface issues, that to an experienced eye give this piece away as a fake, the rim situation is the only one simple enough to explain, but also impossible to explain away.
Note the rim that goes around the entirety of the coin, but that then moves towards the centre on the right?
That shouldn't be there.
For two reasons:
First, there was no raised rim in the design of the original coin, there couldn't have been one, as the edge lettering was milled on in a first step before the design was struck.
Second, the rim you see in your piece is an artifice of the modern three-piece die used in creating this fake: instead of striking a pre-lettered planchet, this piece was struck in a collared die, whose edge held the letter design, this is a cheaper manufacturing process that produces perfectly round planchets, instead of the slightly oval coins coming out of the edge-milling process of the 1700's. As such when creating their dies for these fakes, the original used was not a perfect circle, and its design ended where you now see the raised rim on your piece.
This coin could not possibly have come out of 18th century Russia, the techniques required for a 3-piece die have only existed since the 1810's, and then again only came into general use in the 1820s-1830s.
Laurent
So people where making fake coins that early? Wauuw i really didnt know. I also am beein honnest that i really dont know anything about coins. All information i have is from internet.
Oh, fake coins are as old as real coins!
But regarding 3-piece dies, no, they have only become cheap enough to be used by forgers since the 1950's, tool steel is quite expensive!
Realistically, I think yours is rather early, and I was comfortable sharing my analysis of the rim because after a quick inspection most good modern fakes of this type seem to have stepped beyond this level of sophistication.
I'd say that about a 1970-1980's fake (so 40 ish years ago) sounds about right for the period when it would have been made.
Sorry again for the bad news.
LRC
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
Citeer: "Timbouch"So people where making fake coins that early? Wauuw i really didnt know.
This surprised me too, I thought it was rather safe to buy coins in that time but apparently I'm wrong.
I'm not an expert at all but when I saw your pictures my immediate thought was these are fakes, more a gut feeling than knowledge but nevertheless. I follow a monthly auction where a lot of Russian coins are auctioned. Here's a page with a lot of Siberian coin (lot 1620 till 1647): https://www.katzauction.com/auctions/1-2AROYZ/katz-auction-26?limit=36&jump_to_lot=2620 .Look at the pictures, cheap or expensive none of the coins there look like yours.
Like I said, I'm not an expert at all but Loruca and Apuking are. If they say yours are fake, you better believe them. Nevertheless I understand you want a second opinion and go visiting a coin collector/coin shop/auctioneer. But I do hope, as a courtesy for all those who wanted to help you here, you'll come back here to tell us their findings. I hope we are all wrong, but I'm afraid we're not.
Status gewijzigd naar Opgelost(Timbouch, 28-jul-2020, 15:04)
Why not send your coins to a third-party grading company like NGC? They will most likely tell you if they are fake or not, grade them, and preserve the memory of your grandfather.
Citeer: "iiruig"Why not send your coins to a third-party grading company like NGC? They will most likely tell you if they are fake or not, grade them, and preserve the memory of your grandfather.
Hello,
I have an appointment tomorrow to see someone that can tell me the value and i will ask him if he wants to get them graded aswell. If they are fake, bad luck for me but i still believe they are real. Maybe they where one of the first to be made and thats why they look zo new... Nobody knows. Ill keep everyone updated here.
Citeer: "Timbouch"Maybe they where one of the first to be made and thats why they look zo new... Nobody knows.
Ill keep everyone updated here.
There is a saying in spanish that says "dont throw more wood to the fire"...
Once i said that, what you said in your last comment, in my opinion, is a bad reasoning. I mean, even if they were 20.000.000 millions of this coins made, the first or the last will have more or less the same condition in the moment they were made (the basics: wear and lustre). So it could be anyone of the "20.000.000 millions" if it was took apart and gave a very special care to be preserved in such condition.
I want to point out what already others told you, you have here 3 top mates (loruca, apunking and Grynia who helps and makes most of the russian identifications in this forum) giving you different thoughts and hints that lead them to distrust the examples you bring here.
Dont be sad or maid if the coins are fake, stay with the memory of the items legated to you by your grandfather.
I hope to read the end of this story. Regards
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
lorucaMost certainly picture of the other coins would be nice!
